Sony ID Buffer *spawn*

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by Silent_Buddha, Sep 14, 2019.

  1. Shortbread

    Shortbread Island Hopper
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2013
    Messages:
    4,100
    Likes Received:
    2,326
    I think SB's statements that "almost none wants to use the ID buffer," that its "difficult to use," and the option towards the "shortcomings in the hardware" are somewhat hyperbolic, rather than actual fact.

    The CBR method (ID buffering) by PS4-Pro might not be favorable for all game engine pipelines, not all hardware solutions are. But a blanket statement of essentially calling the solution terrible, doesn't even compute with Dictator's responses and sources on the matter. If anything, it's just developers choosing what best fits their engine and needs. GG went with their own method, while SMS went with Sony's CBR method.
     
    #21 Shortbread, Sep 14, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2019
  2. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,800
    Likes Received:
    10,814
    Location:
    The North
    I believe there is ID buffer equivalence in X1X but MS chooses not to discuss it. As Fp16 is already with Navi; this seems locked unless they want to custom remove it.
     
    PSman1700 likes this.
  3. Rootax

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,511
    Likes Received:
    873
    Location:
    France
    Can Sony even remove ID Buffer if they want "easy" backward compatibility ?
     
    PSman1700 likes this.
  4. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    6,487
    Likes Received:
    5,991
    Sony's ID buffer implementation seems very specific. Custom hardware added to write poly/obj ID at the same time as the Z.

    What's MS implementation?
     
  5. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,800
    Likes Received:
    10,814
    Location:
    The North
    It was mentioned but never revealed. I honesty don’t know what it is; or how deep the solution goes. (If it has ever been used)

    I do recall on scorpio launch that they had checkerboarding solutions. I’ll need to go look it up.
     
  6. DavidGraham

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2009
    Messages:
    3,286
    Likes Received:
    3,543
    No, it's still there.
     
    iroboto likes this.
  7. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    6,487
    Likes Received:
    5,991
    My understanding is that checkerboard and hardware ID buffer are not that directly related. Journalists conflated the two a bit too much. Anything can do CBR, and the ID buffer is useable for much more than just CBR, it's for any temporal sampling, finding edges, and some forms of AA. And there are many ways to do CBR without using an ID buffer.
     
  8. PSman1700

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2019
    Messages:
    2,684
    Likes Received:
    895
    If games like Spiderman look as good or even better without ID buffer, i wouldn't know why devs would use it in the PS5. FP16 is standard in AMD GPU's since 2016?
     
  9. TheAlSpark

    TheAlSpark Moderator
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2004
    Messages:
    21,710
    Likes Received:
    7,348
    Location:
    ಠ_ಠ
    Shortbread likes this.
  10. MrFox

    MrFox Deludedly Fantastic
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    6,487
    Likes Received:
    5,991
    Where's this insomniac engine with CBR+ID Buffer to compare with? How do you know how it looks?

    Otherwise you should also ask yourself if GT Sport and God of War, and Detroit, look better using ID buffer, why doesn't everybody use it?

    It seems to be a complicated decision, game dependent, engine dependent, and some development effort to get it right. It's not some flag to enable at compile time.
     
    Shortbread likes this.
  11. see colon

    see colon All Ham & No Potatos
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,626
    Likes Received:
    488
    Wouldn't they have to have ID Buffer to maintain compatibility? Unless PS5 is just going to run those PS4 games in non-pro mode, which would sort of be a) Terrible and b) Sort of a Sony thing to do that both makes sense, and doesn't make sense at the same time.
     
  12. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    43,577
    Likes Received:
    16,028
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    ID buffer is doing something that can be done in compute, so possibly they could emulate its function. But according to posters here, practically no-one is using the ID buffer anyway. :p
     
  13. Miniature Kaiju

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2019
    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    58
    If Sony is serious about VR next gen, they'll have the ID buffer (and some other customization) to accelerate TSS. By reusing shaded polys for the second viewport they can get the frame time for both eyes way, way down.
     
    chris1515 likes this.
  14. chris1515

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    4,786
    Likes Received:
    3,740
    Location:
    Barcelona Spain
    And people forget ID buffer can be useful for other things than CBR and it was not on base PS4... I think if Sony must retain one lesson from the mid-gen console, fancy features aren't so important because everything not available on the base consoles will be underutilized same thing for FP16(in Xbox One X too) or RPM. It is better to "brute force" the architecture of mid-gen console. I expect better utilization of some of the mid-gen features in next-generation games than current-gen and cross-generation games...
     
    #34 chris1515, Sep 15, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019
    Miniature Kaiju likes this.
  15. Recop

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2015
    Messages:
    1,290
    Likes Received:
    625
    It may have an impact on performances, but until now we don't see a particular advantage quality wise in actual games. I mean games using reconstruction techniques just look as good on MS consoles.
     
  16. Shortbread

    Shortbread Island Hopper
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2013
    Messages:
    4,100
    Likes Received:
    2,326
    The whole reasoning behind CBR is to save and/or gain back shader/pixel performance without breaking the bank on high resolution rendering (such as native 4K). If consoles could brute force native 4K (and above) without impacting performance targets (i.e., framerates), then CBR methods wouldn't be necessary in most cases. Point being, CBR is a solution for providing higher resolution imagery without a great cost to performance. So there is an advantage to having CBR this generation and the next-generation.
     
  17. BRiT

    BRiT Verified (╯°□°)╯
    Moderator Legend Alpha

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    15,905
    Likes Received:
    14,819
    Location:
    Cleveland
    I think part of the nuance of having discussion is some use CBR to mean any reconstruction techniques (even those without checkerboarding) while some use it to mean specifically using the ID Buffer hardware assist.
     
    egoless and iroboto like this.
  18. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    43,577
    Likes Received:
    16,028
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    Unless they have eye-tracked foveated rendering which is even more important. Then VR is far more efficient than TV gaming.
     
  19. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,800
    Likes Received:
    10,814
    Location:
    The North
    Agreed. I have been using CBR as a catch all term for all reconstruction. Mainly because I don’t know how to short form reconstruction to a 3 letter acronym.
     
  20. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    43,577
    Likes Received:
    16,028
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    All we really need is a new acronym for CBR that resolves to generic reconstruction. Compute-Based Reconstruction. :cool2:
     
    MrSpiggott, iroboto and TheAlSpark like this.
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...