Sony Home - The official thread*

[patsu]

I don't think Home is holding up in-game XMB. They planned Home for a different audience (Dress and other lifestyle stuff), and has a much larger scope. Only recently have they refocus Home to be gamer-centric. But by then, we already know 2.4 will include some form of in-game XMB. Initially, Phil doesn't even want to include game (launch) integration into Home at launch. Clearly there are separate and different animals initially.

The tardiness of in-game XMB may have more to do with low level issues, and possibly other firmware related extensions. It could not have come before 2.2 at the earliest since we know a large chunk of OS memory was returned in that firmware version.

Based on Peter Moore's experience, I think he sees some potential there to attract a new crowd.

 

[Asher]

In the interviews, it's quite clear that Home is holding up many online features. For instance, "trophies" are being implemented in Home before anything else.

I see absolutely no reason for there not to be a unified friends list, trophy system, etc. by now unless the effort is in putting these into Home and porting them later to the XMB (which is exactly what is mentioned in a recent interview regarding trophies).

 

[Asher]

Here is the article I'm referring to, don't think it's been posted here.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=188622

Sony was being too ambitious with the non-gaming applications of Home and delayed the project to focus on gaming, SCEE president David Reeves has told CVG.

...

And this: http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2008/05/08/home-game-spaces-being-shown-off-later-this-month/

Speaking to Daniel Hill at PlayStation Day we managed to gather a few tidbits of info about Home and where it's headed. Hill reiterated that the open beta will be happening this Autumn. He also added that the closed beta will be "extended" in July to include more gamers as well as, for the first time, European press. When asked whether Home would be fully functional for the open beta, Hill responded by saying that "Home will never be fully functional" and that it will continue to grow and evolve over time. The open beta will include all necessary features such as trophies and game launching.

Game spaces are slightly lower on the list of priorities, but not forgotten. Some are being shown off later this month to beta members and Hill stated that what he had seen of them is "really impressive." Game launching has extended beyond Warhawk to MotorStorm now, and this feature was demonstrated on the show floor at PlayStation Day. The feature allows you to select your option preferences, including track and number of laps, within Home. This allows you to almost immediately jump straight into the gameplay, rather than into another menu.

Hill also confirmed to us that trophies will be available in the XMB. "They have to be," he said. There's no word on when that will happen, but a 2D representation of your trophy list will be visible via the XMB at some point in the future. Obviously, the basic funtionality needs to be created within Home itself before being exported to the XMB, so don't expect it anytime soon.

 

[patsu]

Here is the article I'm referring to, don't think it's been posted here.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=188622

Yes, I was waiting for someone to post that article (Otherwise, it's always me talking ). I think their first revelation was a few months ago. It's a brief comment from a Sony exec citing that in-game advertising is not expected to earn as much as they thought. Soon after that, they outsourced the advertising to 4 competing firms to keep the cost low.

They will need at least 2 things to prove the in-game advertising model:

(i) The conversion ratio. Like how FaceBook tries to find a new "promo" model for its site, PS Home will need to look for its own interactive marketing model over time. Google search engine sponsored links are said to have 30% conversion rate (while it's adsense conversion rate is much much lower).

(ii) The install base and profile. Need tens and hundreds of millions. For now, they may have to piggyback on their movie business, or like what they do now... outsource to an external agency to handle.

And this: http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2008/05/08/home-game-spaces-being-shown-off-later-this-month/

That says nothing about in-game XMB though. Game space is a Home thing. The other essential gaming features (e.g., game launching from clan room) is already available in the closed beta.

 

[Asher]

Yes, I was waiting for someone to post that article (Otherwise, it's always me talking ). I think their first revelation was a few months ago. It's a brief comment from a Sony exec commenting that in-game advertising is not expected to earn as much as they thought. Soon after that, they outsourced the advertising to 4 firms to keep the cost low.



That says nothing about in-game XMB though. Game space is a Home thing. The other essential gaming features (e.g., game launching from clan room) is already available in the closed beta.

But the last line very clearly indicates at least one feature (Trophies) that need to be released on Home before we get them otherwise:

Hill also confirmed to us that trophies will be available in the XMB. "They have to be," he said. There's no word on when that will happen, but a 2D representation of your trophy list will be visible via the XMB at some point in the future. Obviously, the basic funtionality needs to be created within Home itself before being exported to the XMB, so don't expect it anytime soon.

I don't think it's inconceivable that this is their mindset in general -- implement in Home for the first go, and create an equivalent XMB-driven feature of it later.

 

[patsu]

But the last line very clearly indicates at least one feature (Trophies) that need to be released on Home before we get them otherwise:

Sure... Achievement is already implemented by some games today. It's here now. Unlike in-game XMB, this is not something that can be done automatically for all games. The developers have to support it explicitly. May be that's why Trophy is a low priority for Home (XMB already has a working version). Following this logic, other gaming feartures can certainly come earlier than Home if Sony chooses to. In-Game XMB does not hinge on Home (The other way round may be true).

I don't think it's inconceivable that this is their mindset in general -- implement in Home for the first go, and create an equivalent XMB-driven feature of it later.

May be, may be not. Major XMB features (e.g., DLNA, Blu-ray) were delivered in stages. It is also possible for them to take the same approach for in-game XMB.

EDIT: My hunch is MS will also roll out their own take on clan/group management soon.

 

[patsu]

Eurogamer demo on Game Launching from Home

http://www.eurogamer.net/tv_video.php?playlist_id=8863

It's a cross game party system. Apparently, users get to choose all the online game parameters in Home. Once a match is found, the players launch into the game level itself. The original game lobby is by-passed altogether.

EDIT: The other feature in the Home beta is the clan/war room integration. I was hoping they showed that (e.g., strategizing in a 3D mini-map while waiting for Warhawk to start) but no luck.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I feel unconvinced. This implementation allows gamers to meet up in Home prior to launching - okay, that's a plus versus something like Warhawk where there's no meeting up - but what if your friends are already playing something else, or just not in Home? I'll add a real-world example. A friend of mine plays Warhawk a lot more than I do. If he's online playing and I load up Warhawk, I've no way off getting his attention to switch to a game we can play together in. A couple of times I've created servers named expressly to attract his attention but to no avail.

Invites need to be integrated into PS3OS. If we had multitasked cross-game chat we wouldn't need lobbies for that end (though we would to meet up with others not on chat lists of course), but could instead just talk to each other.

"Hi, I'm setting up a Warhawk Server now."
"Okay, let me know when it's running and I'll quit Stardust to join."
"Right, it's done. Look for SUPER_SERVER."
"Okay, I'm there."

A lot of online focus seems to be centred on just playing online, with little regard for who with. The core aspect to any community is creating groups of friends within it and those friends sharing experiences, which means joining up with and sharing with those same friends should be at the centre of the community drive. As it is it's possible for friends to meet up for a video chat, discuss their ideas, and create a game. But only if they happen to be doing nothing other than waiting for a video chat! This doesn't much improve on that. If you meet up in video chat, you can arrange a game. If you meet up in Home, you can arrange a game. That latter is quicker, but no more flexible on the whole. Both require would-be participants to meet up via prior arrangement in a 'meeting-zone' to arrange to play together. I await with pessimistic expectation for Sony to show real cross-game friend functionality.

 

[Nesh]

I feel unconvinced. This implementation allows gamers to meet up in Home prior to launching - okay, that's a plus versus something like Warhawk where there's no meeting up - but what if your friends are already playing something else, or just not in Home? I'll add a real-world example. A friend of mine plays Warhawk a lot more than I do. If he's online playing and I load up Warhawk, I've no way off getting his attention to switch to a game we can play together in. A couple of times I've created servers named expressly to attract his attention but to no avail.

Invites need to be integrated into PS3OS. If we had multitasked cross-game chat we wouldn't need lobbies for that end (though we would to meet up with others not on chat lists of course), but could instead just talk to each other.

"Hi, I'm setting up a Warhawk Server now."
"Okay, let me know when it's running and I'll quit Stardust to join."
"Right, it's done. Look for SUPER_SERVER."
"Okay, I'm there."

A lot of online focus seems to be centred on just playing online, with little regard for who with. The core aspect to any community is creating groups of friends within it and those friends sharing experiences, which means joining up with and sharing with those same friends should be at the centre of the community drive. As it is it's possible for friends to meet up for a video chat, discuss their ideas, and create a game. But only if they happen to be doing nothing other than waiting for a video chat! This doesn't much improve on that. If you meet up in video chat, you can arrange a game. If you meet up in Home, you can arrange a game. That latter is quicker, but no more flexible on the whole. Both require would-be participants to meet up via prior arrangement in a 'meeting-zone' to arrange to play together. I await with pessimistic expectation for Sony to show real cross-game friend functionality.

What if you can message him up and he accesses his message through the IN-GAME XMB? When you receive a message, even now, you get a display at the top of your display that you have received a message from friend "X"

Thr only problem currently is that you can not access it and reply without quitting. An in game XMB will help out

 

[Asher]

How can you make sure you end up in the same "Home" 'world' as your friends?

 

[Nesh]

Invitations probably?

 

[patsu]

I feel unconvinced. This implementation allows gamers to meet up in Home prior to launching - okay, that's a plus versus something like Warhawk where there's no meeting up - but what if your friends are already playing something else, or just not in Home? I'll add a real-world example. A friend of mine plays Warhawk a lot more than I do. If he's online playing and I load up Warhawk, I've no way off getting his attention to switch to a game we can play together in. A couple of times I've created servers named expressly to attract his attention but to no avail.

YES ! These are EXACTLY the sort of real world problems Sony is working on (or needs to work on) at beta. As Nesh pointed out, in-game XMB would be more suitable in that situation. You may not need to use Home at all.

Alternatively, if you designate a regular meeting place, just show up there. When your friend is out of a session, he should magically appear at the same place. The way Home does it is to reify and persist the transient party relationship and virtual meet-ups. So we can manage these temporal "parties" as a concrete user "object". The friendslist is a more permanent and hence, more protected and static, concept in comparison.

I feel that what cross-game party does best is to help two groups of users: (i) The people who's looking for recommendations or something to do (because he's new or bored), and (ii) The regular meetup folks.

In the first case, he'd just ventured into the Home world and hook up randomly by visiting different "rooms". There are additional things to do there to help him make up his mind. We usually talk about Home as if it's a huge unified world, but in reality, there are rooms to set the appropriate context for people to connect.

In the second case, it's just convenience at play. During meetup times, some will be early. Home gives them a good way to explore. The late comers can also wait for an on-going game to finish in Home before joining the party. I don't know if we still need a persistent party leader in this setup (probably yes to simplify the integration initially).

The other questions are:
(1) What happens if the game allows ad hoc connect ? (Probably launch into game from anywhere, anytime using virtual PSP)
(2) What happens if people want to split up and then join later (Should be natural as people leave the room and enter again).
(3) What happens if people just needed a short break while the rest party on for just one session ? (I don't know... leaving the room sounds too "large grained" but it may suffice for a start. Right now, we have to re-invite the player back into the party instead of him just walking into the "real and identifiable" party in Home)

Invites need to be integrated into PS3OS. If we had multitasked cross-game chat we wouldn't need lobbies for that end (though we would to meet up with others not on chat lists of course), but could instead just talk to each other.

"Hi, I'm setting up a Warhawk Server now."
"Okay, let me know when it's running and I'll quit Stardust to join."
"Right, it's done. Look for SUPER_SERVER."
"Okay, I'm there."

Alternatively, just show up at the usual place we meet at Home. This will be more useful when Home is integrated in every PS3 games, and if your gaming social circle grows (like multiple clans or a gaming forum as big as GAF). Your friendslist only has 50 people max. and is usually carefully managed.

A lot of online focus seems to be centred on just playing online, with little regard for who with. The core aspect to any community is creating groups of friends within it and those friends sharing experiences, which means joining up with and sharing with those same friends should be at the centre of the community drive. As it is it's possible for friends to meet up for a video chat, discuss their ideas, and create a game. But only if they happen to be doing nothing other than waiting for a video chat! This doesn't much improve on that. If you meet up in video chat, you can arrange a game. If you meet up in Home, you can arrange a game. That latter is quicker, but no more flexible on the whole. Both require would-be participants to meet up via prior arrangement in a 'meeting-zone' to arrange to play together. I await with pessimistic expectation for Sony to show real cross-game friend functionality.

The cross game party doesn't force you to take a different route. It offers a different way to manage your online relationships and play online games.

EDIT:

How can you make sure you end up in the same "Home" 'world' as your friends?

Have your own clan room, or just knock on his apartment door ("Your place or mine ?")

 

[Asher]

Invitations probably?

So the procedure is:

Invite into "Home" --> load home, walk around to find eachother/meet in 'game room' --> load game and play.

Is it just me or is there an extra step here?

For instance: I'm playing Resistance 2. My friend is playing Warhawk. He wants to invite me into his game. How does this happen? Every usecase I envision basically places Home like a 3D Lobby. And let's just say I'm not the biggest fan of lobbies in games...I'd prefer to be playing.

 

[patsu]

If it's pure game invitation, then you should be able to get into the party and run. Once you're done, you drops back to the game lobby again. If your party happens to be in Home, then you would show up at Home and can move on together to a different level in a different game right away (say, if we decide to alternate between R2 and Warhawk after my arrival).

So the procedure is:

Invite into "Home" --> load home, walk around to find eachother/meet in 'game room' --> load game and play.

Is it just me or is there an extra step here?

For instance: I'm playing Resistance 2. My friend is playing Warhawk. He wants to invite me into his game. How does this happen? Every usecase I envision basically places Home like a 3D Lobby. And let's just say I'm not the biggest fan of lobbies in games...I'd prefer to be playing.

You're seeing the extra step because you're looking at it the wrong way. Also, you can teleport in Home. There is no walking needed. Home allows you new ways to connect. You don't have to use the new ways if they are more cumbersome. The beta and on-going changes will help to improve it as people give more feedback.

If you prefer to game continuously, the current game matching already suffice. But it can be more fun to be in a clan. For me, it is indeed more entertaining to play with the GAF guys, although I do regular individual runs too.

EDIT: In fact, when the platform matures, I may even demand a request to bulk add everyone in the current party to my friendslist... or basically form a persistent group in my friendslist.

The biggest challenge now is probably the load time. I think they should gimp the graphics to optimize for response time. The faster, the better.

 

[Nesh]

So the procedure is:

Invite into "Home" --> load home, walk around to find eachother/meet in 'game room' --> load game and play.

Is it just me or is there an extra step here?

For instance: I'm playing Resistance 2. My friend is playing Warhawk. He wants to invite me into his game. How does this happen? Every usecase I envision basically places Home like a 3D Lobby. And let's just say I'm not the biggest fan of lobbies in games...I'd prefer to be playing.

Nah I actually imagined an invitation which when accepted it automatically takes you the exact "place" your friend is.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

What if you can message him up and he accesses his message through the IN-GAME XMB? When you receive a message, even now, you get a display at the top of your display that you have received a message from friend "X"

Thr only problem currently is that you can not access it and reply without quitting. An in game XMB will help out

There's a second problem when your friend doesn't notice the notification, because they're a 'happy camper' who spends half their life staring at a small, circular aiming reticule on their sniper rifle!

It needs something more like a telephone call, a ring tone that they can either answer or disable, and the option to allow/refuse incoming calls.

 

[Nesh]

There's a second problem when your friend doesn't notice the notification, because they're a 'happy camper' who spends half their life staring at a small, circular aiming reticule on their sniper rifle!

It needs something more like a telephone call, a ring tone that they can either answer or disable, and the option to allow/refuse incoming calls.

Well it sounds like a small thing. Nothing too technical. A solution to that can be found easily so I am not that worried.

Even if a solution such as the one you suggested is not created, from personal experience in Tekken 5R some people tend to send invitations so many times that it is hard not to notice at least once or twice the gray box at the top of the screen saying "message from X inviting you for Y session"

 

[Shifty Geezer]

So the procedure is:

Invite into "Home" --> load home, walk around to find eachother/meet in 'game room' --> load game and play.

As this feature allows you to launch a game at any place, the likely meeting place will be someone's virtual flat if you're not drumming up a party from the general public. This demo seems aimed more at the latter target, as evidenced by the Forming Game icon that appears over heads, much like an MMO party formation. So you can go to the mall and be playing bowling with some people and get talking and find you're all into Resistance, so decide to play that game, and broadcast a server for people in the area to join. The party of 7 you've just met at bowling all join in, and you wait, talking merrily, for another few people to join before launching.

For existing friends, you'd meet in someone's apartment, socialising there until everyone arrives ready for the game.

In most cases though I expect people would rather be playing something and want to jump out and into a game, rather than sit around waiting. I have been online gaming for very long, but man, have I wasted hours looking at server lists and selecting games and trying to track people down! Even with Messenger chat on PC, organising things is still cumbersome. What would be extra nice is if players not playing can track down a friend and click a 'join game' from in Home or XMB and *bam* they're there in that player's game, or if they can't, that player is notified - Patsu's ad hoc connection idea.

YES ! These are EXACTLY the sort of real world problems Sony is working on (or needs to work on) at beta. As Nesh pointed out, in-game XMB would be more suitable in that situation. You may not need to use Home at all.

Yes, XMB would. I guess the thing that's concerning me is Sony are talking about Home and it's features, but not XMB's. If Home was happnening in parallel to the core components, I'd be a lot happier for it! As it is, the idea has grabbed as I didn't think it would, but I remain apprehensive that Sony aren't targeting the right areas yet.

(1) What happens if the game allows ad hoc connect ? (Probably launch into game from anywhere, anytime using virtual PSP)

I guess games would need to be designed/patched with this as an option, but it would be by far the quickest, easiest solution.

(2) What happens if people want to split up and then join later (Should be natural as people leave the room and enter again).

Kind of covered in point one.

(3) What happens if people just needed a short break while the rest party on for just one session ? (I don't know... leaving the room sounds too "large grained" but it may suffice for a start. Right now, we have to re-invite the player back into the party instead of him just walking into the "real and identifiable" party in Home)

I think Sony should work on treating online parties as a 'night out with the guys'. A person should be able to align themselves with a party on PSN, and they go where that party goes and does what that party does. At any point they can leave and do their own thing, and also 'dial them up on the mobile' to join back in. For this I'd have a 'party leader' choosing games and whatnot with other members passed to the same game, and open chat to discuss what everyone wants to do.

 

[patsu]

For existing friends, you'd meet in someone's apartment, socialising there until everyone arrives ready for the game.

That's right. I think media sharing/streaming and trophy browsing will be a big thing here. They will need to trottle the bandwidth though.

Yes, XMB would. I guess the thing that's concerning me is Sony are talking about Home and it's features, but not XMB's. If Home was happnening in parallel to the core components, I'd be a lot happier for it! As it is, the idea has grabbed as I didn't think it would, but I remain apprehensive that Sony aren't targeting the right areas yet.

While I have said bad things about Kaz before, credits have to be given to him for refocusing Sony on gaming first in spite of all these wild ideas. They need to channel these ideas in gaming context first. The rest will follow over time.

Selling XMB is not a sexy or easy-to-understand thing. We are throwing around that "in-game XMB" term because there is no official marketing term to describe the experience (yet).

I think Sony should work on treating online parties as a 'night out with the guys'. A person should be able to align themselves with a party on PSN, and they go where that party goes and does what that party does. At any point they can leave and do their own thing, and also 'dial them up on the mobile' to join back in. For this I'd have a 'party leader' choosing games and whatnot with other members passed to the same game, and open chat to discuss what everyone wants to do.

Yes, they should dwell more on it and come up with a name and some simple descriptions. Right now, I noticed that:

(i) MGO's online system works rather well in concept to the Home game launching service (You get matched to a party and then run together until the game set ends or you quit out early).

(ii) GT5P's "racing event" concept may play well to your "night out" idea too. Pretty soon, every PS3 guy/gal will be an expert event manager and party organizer (complete with showing off personal media collection and bubble machines).

I guess the thing that's concerning me is Sony are talking about Home and it's features, but not XMB's. If Home was happnening in parallel to the core components, I'd be a lot happier for it! As it is, the idea has grabbed as I didn't think it would, but I remain apprehensive that Sony aren't targeting the right areas yet.

Sony marketing is still finding its groove it seems. For now, seriously, cut down on response time as the first priority. Nice graphics can come next.

 

[Cornsnake]

I'll continue here on what started in the Resistance 2 thread.

The development of home started on PS2 but because of its limitations they moved it to PS3. (It couldn't handle a bubbles machine that could be placed anywhere.) That should have given them the perfect opportunity to make some ground rules from Home support before any games are released. Now they have to adapt it to existing games and games that are still in development. An open platfrom and unified games support within Home is going to much more difficult to build and maintain now. We'll probably have to wait for PS4 before it'll work as it should.