Sony advertise for software engineer for BC

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by DJ12, Jan 18, 2008.

  1. Bohdy

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    Is that really such a dealbreaker, though?

    PCSX2 seems to manage to emulate a lot of effects without the 'massive' GS bandwidth. At worst the PS3 could skip some effects, or render than at half fps, which would be ok if they are not too extensive.
     
  2. Arwin

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    Is there any game that actually shifts that much data on the PS2 though? I mean, theory and practice ...
     
  3. Cheezdoodles

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    I think its a given that PS2's bandwidth strenght have been utilized in most well developed ps2 games...
     
  4. Arwin

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    I don't know about that. I could be wrong, sure, but I can't think of a game that ends up looking like it uses more bandwidth than a PS3 can handle. The thing is I think more likely to be a matter of emulation typically being much slower, especially when the architecture is just so different. But I'm not sure, which is why I am asking.
     
  5. MJP

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    This is because typically much of the bandwidth was used to multi-pass effects that can be done in one pass on less "primitive" hardware. The classic example is normal-mapping, which IIRC required 3 passes on the PS2.

    So like Squeak alluded to, the problem is you'd have to somehow recognize when the the game code is attempting to do something like normal mapping and then swap in some shader that could do it one pass. I don't really see how that's possible, but of course I'm no emulator expert. :smile:
     
  6. Squeak

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    Some of the best games like Okami and Shadow of the Colossus are really thrashing the eDRAM for all it's worth, you'd totally change the look of those games if you took out those effects, maybe even making them unplayable.
    High end video cards of today have 512bit busses and higher clocks, which makes them come close to, or exceed the internal bandwidth of the GS, that might be why emus are starting to work.
    But busses like that aren't feasible in a console.
    There is hope though, that that you could save a lot of bandwidth, by using some of the bandwidth saving stuff in the RSX.
    Or alternatively, the extreme solution of moving the whole GS emu over to SPUs and tile render the scene.
    Bilinear could become a bottleneck though (maybe you could have the RSX do a post render operation with it's shaders to rectify that...).
     
  7. Cheezdoodles

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    The talented devs did everything to squeeze as much performance as possible on the PS2. What that means is that talented devs spend all that bandwidth on what was possible back then. They utilized everything, there are plenty of games that do things that the PS3 would struggle with bandwidth wise.
     
  8. Nesh

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    Shadow of the Colossus for example?

    Is it an issue of the solution the developers have chosen to display some graphics on the PS2 or a matter of performance?
    Cant the PS3 replicate the same exact visuals? If yes then I guess there is some kind of a solution that the PS3 hardware can use to bypass the bottleneck.

    Btw my PS3 is the European 60GB model. It has BC. Tekken Tag Tournament though has some issues. Depending on the characters on screen (not the number of characters but the models/fighters) the game runs faster or slower. Most often slower. The framerate becomes unbearable and some effects are missing (particle and other hit effects).

    It also surprisingly looks better than Tekken 5 DR to me. It looks like Namco managed to get lots of performance out of the PS2 with such an early game and the PS3 struggles to play it without the full PS2 hardware. Perhaps they used that extra bandwidth a lot
     
  9. SG79

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    They did, in fact, they went a little crazy with the poly count too, which is in fact higher than T5 DR. That's the difference you're seeing for the most part, and texture resolution is more consistent. Also, the effects are pretty much the same in both games, but were used too much in TTT.

    Comparing the burning Hon Maru stage in the PS3 T5 DR to the PS2 T5 shows a noticeable difference in the (for the lack of a better term) heat wave effect. It's more profound on the PS2 and the arcade version (which runs on an overclocked EE and more RAM).
     
  10. Color me Dan

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    If I understood you correctly here then eh, are you saying that they should make special code for almost every game with an exotic effect? I don't think people understand what is needed here. It's not about making effect x look like it did on the ps2. It's about making effect x be executed in code in the same exact manner as it would be on the PS2 while making it understandable to the PS3.

    The PS3 has to first get the code which was written to the PS2; and for everything, every bit of that code to make an effect, it would have to first calculate how the affected hardware in the PS2 would behave when getting that code and precisely emulate it. The PS2 is so unique in itself that there are no easy parallels to translate the code into. All the while it's executing and emulating the PS2s effects it needs to keep in mind everything else that's going on, every (sometimes supposed) read and write operation and every time something changes it has to be calculated and then recalculated for the PS3 to actually display it. It's like translating a different language on the fly and making perfect replica paintings after the translated instructions over a phone, one handed. Miss one line in the translation and the output would be a mess. I'm not an expert in neither coding or emulating, but something tells me that if you got a phone call with instructions to make a Rembrandt, even if you've seen it and in a language you actually know, you'd still fail to do so.

    On the other hand, If you got to learn to paint Rembrandts one handed over the phone over a few years perhaps you'd do a good job at it. All I'm saying with that is that given the time and resources perhaps Sony can and will implement this feature that I and you and many more would love to see. Right now it doesn't seem to be a priority. Too bad really, but It's not so easy either. Possible, maybe so, easy? not at all.

    P.S.
    This isn't directed specifically at you Nesh, nor is it supposed to be demeaning or anything, but it's directed at everyone who think it's an easy task.
     
  11. Nesh

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    I admit that am not knowledgeable on the matter. I only thought of the possibility that a solution might be there. I didnt imply how this solution will be though or anything ragarding the complexity. So nope I didnt imply anything about making special code for almost every game with an exotic effect.
     
  12. Jugix

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    Has anyone noticed Sonystyle web page where 80GB PS3 specifications are listed? :)

    Sonystyle.com

    EDIT: Yep, it is "old" 80GB model.
     
    #52 Jugix, Aug 21, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2008
  13. Shifty Geezer

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    I'd wait for confirmation myself. I see good chance of that being someone copy/pasting the old 80GB spec not knowing there's a difference. The old 80GB would be a money loser for Sony, which makes no sense at this point, unless they have loads of stock they just can't shift. And if that's the case they should be selling it at a premium on eBay where BC seems valued!
     
  14. Squeak

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    SACDs return is almost as great news to me.
     
  15. obonicus

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    Wait, that quote mentions MGS4. Isn't this the MGS4 bundle? Those are old 80GB machines, they always had BC. (Did they always have SACD?)
     
  16. DieH@rd

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    from GAF


    translation:
    "Wir beobachten, bei welchen Titeln sich dies noch lohnen wird, und werden in Zukunft möglicherweise weitere PS2-Spiele auf der PS3 per Emulation zum Laufen bringen."

    The exact quote is "We're monitoring for which titles this would be worthwhile, and may make more PS2 games run on PS3 via emulation in the future."
     
  17. Shifty Geezer

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    Like XB360 BC then. Probably with a view to selling the games on PSN as well.
     
  18. mjdted

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    Hope something didn't get lost in translation there.
     
  19. StefanS

    StefanS meandering Velosoph
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    That's pretty much taken out of context here:

    Reeves further expanded upon the backwards compatibility of the PS2 Singstar titles. The BC will be implemented via software emulation, which will be included in a future firmware update. With that update all PS2 Singstar titles can be played on the PS3. You wouldn't need a PS3 Singstar game. "We are having a look at which titles this still might be worthwhile for, and we might, in future, enable additional PS2 titles to run on PS3." However, this would be a very complex task from a technical perspective, because the current PS3 models (SKUs) lack the necessary PS2 chips.
     
    #59 StefanS, Aug 25, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 26, 2008
  20. Nesh

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    I hope they fix TTT
     
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