Some question about Xbox/GC hardware
- Thread starter Legion
- Start date
DeathKnight
Regular
I don't need to sit here and waste my time arguing with someone who 1) doesn't have any grasp whatsoever of what is going on and 2) feels the need to spew out personal insults whenever he has the opportunity (really shows who has the upperhand in the argument).
A few other posters including Qroach cleared it up quite nicely while I was away. I've made my points, they still stand, so run along.
A few other posters including Qroach cleared it up quite nicely while I was away. I've made my points, they still stand, so run along.
Again,
Quincy is right. Cybamerc is wrong.
Must be some strange Cybamerc-Julian-F5-Deutschkonnectionne
It'd be like Bungie ripping up the GC hardware in a public forum. Jason Jones is cool and all, but I'd take his vested interest with a grain of salt when comparing techs.
Quincy is right. Cybamerc is wrong.
Must be some strange Cybamerc-Julian-F5-Deutschkonnectionne
It'd be like Bungie ripping up the GC hardware in a public forum. Jason Jones is cool and all, but I'd take his vested interest with a grain of salt when comparing techs.
Ooh-videogames
Regular
I read that the GC's fillrate is 684megapixels/ps and the same for texels is this true. From what read in this forum ERP has done some benchmarking on GC dev kits and I wanted to know if he could answer this. Everyone answer would be appreciated.
Well firstly all I said was that Factor 5 are nothing like Bungie when it comes to vested interested in a specific console, and I stick by that. Secondly when did Square say that? Also I wouldn't be suprised if they did in the past, Square and Nintendo were enemies for quite a while and also Sony did own 20+% of Square as well.
I really don't know what Factor 5 have said, could someone actually post real quotes, rather then heresay?
Ooh-videogames
Yes GameCube's fillrate is 648mpixels/s.
Johnny Awesome
Veteran
You live in the Mushroom Kingdom Teasy.
Johnny Awesome said:You live in the Mushroom Kingdom Teasy.
Agreed. After examining the hardware and reading through the commentaries of ERP the GC is as on par with the xbox as the Geforce 256 is on with an over clocked Geforce 3. Teasy i think any assertions on your behalf are nothing more than wishful thinking. No one has substantiated your claims here.
They are nothing alike so in your mind so Factor 5 is honest? Teasy you are grasping at straws here. Show me their figures please. Let me see their benchmarks on the final hardware. They are highly biased. Not a single developer here agrees with what factor 5 has ever claimed. Remember their nonsense about RS engine running some 20 million polys at 60 fps with 8 layers of textures in one pass? The GC pixel fillrate is closed to 81 megapixels/second with 8 layers of textures last time i checked. How is this also a single pass considering the lack of multiple TMUs per pipe? According to ERP the GC also loses 50% of its fillrate with 2 texture layers do to the number of clock cycles it takes to pass the textures - so we know there is NO way in hell this is done in a single pass. There is no reason to believe anything that factor 5 says.
How many times will you make pointless troll comments? Tell me, what exactly are you refering to here?, or is that to diffucult a question for you?
Seriously Johhny, is it not about time for you to grow up? Do you see me posting sad childish comments directed at you in every thread?
*sign*, not this again.
In every thread discussing GC and XBox you inevitabely come along and claim that I have said something that I haven't, like "GC is on par with XBox" or even "GC is faster then XBox". Its like you just imagine what I write instead of reading it. I then correct you on it (which I've already done once in this thread), yet you ingore that, as if I didn't actually say it, and come back again with the same crap. Its happened so many times, are you just trying to annoy me or are you genuinly blind to this?
Just to point this out to you for the second time in this thread I said this earlier:
"I think most people already know that in the majority of cases XBox will be more poweful then GameCube."
Legion, I have no problem with you, your posts are usually civil enough and you at least try to argue. But seriously, just stop this patern you have of ignoring my comments on GC and XBox and going back to this pre-determinded opinion you seem to have that I always think GC is better then XBox in every way. Because its starting to get annoying.
Don't put words into my mouth, I don't know if they're honest, is any company always honest? All I said was that comparing Bungie to Factor 5 is pointless. Factor 5 are there own company, not owned by Nintendo, making games for GC because they want to. If they want to say GC is crap they can say it. Bungie are 100% owned by MS, they do and say what MS wants them to.. MS say jump and Bungie will ask how high.
I haven't even mentioned any of that stuff and secondly why don't you show me those quotes? Seriously, because no I have never seen these comments from them. I've only seen them as second hand info from people on forums.
Also on a purely technical note, so what if that only leaves 81mpixels/s?.. that's enough to fill a 640x480 screen close to 300 times per second (640x480 = 307,200 pixels, 81mpixels/s = 81,000,000 pixels per second).
There is overdraw of course, but even with overdraw where's the problem there? As Ben pointed out when someone else talking about this, a Voodoo2 ran dual textured games just fine with only 41mpixels/s (82mpixels/s single texturing).
A pass doesn't have to have anything to do with number of TU's. GameCube can do upto 8 texture layers in a single pass, that's a fact.
Your mixing up clock cycles and passes. Yes with 2 textures GC's fillrate is halfed, and as you said with 8 textures it'f finally drops to 81mpixels/s. But all of that is still done in a single pass. So yes there is 'a way in hell' that they could do that in a single pass, infact its easily possible. If this is a major part of your reasoning behind not believing Factor 5 then I have to say your reasoning is on very shacky ground here.
Yes bungie won't say anything bad about xbox. Why would they? However neither will Factor 5 considering they had a part in designing the audio hardware for gamecube. They don't just make games for gamecube, they have a vested interest in the hardware. I don't see how that's so hard to understand.
Either way you look at it. Factor 5 will probably be more biased then any other developers that has worked with FINAL hardware on all platforms.
Perhaps this is what the others mean by you living in a mushroom kigdom. if you were really following the thread, you would have seen this written already. Now calm down and relax. Take a deep breath, and realize it's just about games.
Quincy
Your wrong on Factor 5 having anything to do with making GC hardware, and AFAIR I've already mentioned this to you before in the past. Factor 5 just made there own DPL2 software for use with there own games. Then they allowed other devs to use it, no different from what plenty of other devs do. So no they don't have any vested interest GC hardware.
If you mean they will likely be more biased towards a single console then a multi-platform dev making games for all consoles then Yes, its likely, or at least a fair assumption. But then maybe you should show me where I've said otherwise so far?
Seen what written already? I haven't said anything about Factor 5 not being more biased towards GC then a multi-platform developer. So maybe you should read my posts more thoroughly?
Your wrong on Factor 5 having anything to do with making GC hardware, and AFAIR I've already mentioned this to you before in the past. Factor 5 just made there own DPL2 software for use with there own games. Then they allowed other devs to use it, no different from what plenty of other devs do. So no they don't have any vested interest GC hardware.
If you mean they will likely be more biased towards a single console then a multi-platform dev making games for all consoles then Yes, its likely, or at least a fair assumption. But then maybe you should show me where I've said otherwise so far?
Seen what written already? I haven't said anything about Factor 5 not being more biased towards GC then a multi-platform developer. So maybe you should read my posts more thoroughly?
Factor 5 has also created the multi-platform MusyXâ„¢ sound tool technology which pioneered 5-channel Dolby Surround Pro-Logic II sound for games in close collaboration with Dolby, the Mort voice compression system and, as a Nintendo technology partner, was involved in the creation of the Nintendo Gamecube hardware.
It says this right on the bloddy Factor 5 website. Perhaps you should tell them that they didn't have a part in designing the gamecube hardware? Now, the question we all wanted to ask you, "how big are the mushrooms this time of year"
Not just a single console, more biased toward gamecube specifically. Which is the exact reason they aren't trusted in what's been said about Xbox. You know, the entire point of what we've been talking about?
Well let's see, you're saying that:
1. Factor 5 really are multiplatform developers that just choose to develop on one console. Compared them to bungie, a company that really wouldn't be honest about xbox hardware vrs the competition.
2. You say they didn't have anything to do with the design of the gamecube hardware at all. Ruling them out of the Bungie/first party catagory or having any reason to not be trusted when they talk about gamecube or even Xbox.
Now, why would you say any of this if you wern't trying to prove that factor 5 really can be trusted in their comments? The fact they can't be trusted with regards to Xbox, is the real reason we're still arguing. If you weren't trying to prove they can be trusted, then what's the point of your replys?
The sound chip for GC is built into Flipper, which is created by ArtX. So you seriously think that Factor 5 made the sound chip built into Flipper? I've never seen Factor 5 mention that and frankly it seems far fetched.
BTW, stop trying to provoke me with your petty insults, because its not going to work this time.
Well yeah obviously the "single console" was GC.
How can a developer be a multi-platform developer if they choose to develop for a single console? Really man, think about it for a moment. I said they are not owned by Nintendo, I did not at any time say they were multi-platform developers. Also I didn't compare anyone to Bungie, someone else said Factor 5 to GC is like Bungie to XBox. That isn't true because Bungie are owned completely by MS and Factor 5 are not owned by Nintendo.
Who's posts are you reading exactly? I have not said that Factor 5 have no reason at all not to be trusted? So why do you claim I've said that? I tell you what, instead of just claiming I've said things post quotes from me. Because I just haven't said what you claim I've said.
I haven't even said that, you just decided to make it up AFAICS. As for your other comment, worst logic ever. So if I don't think Factor 5 are totally honest about Xbox hardware then I can't post in this thread?
In this thread I have argued against some people claiming that ERP and Factor 5 are totally different, as if one is absolutely honest all the time while the other is never honest. I haven't even mentioned half the things you claim I've said, you seem to have mixed me up with someone else. I hope you can at least admit that.
Johnny Awesome
Veteran
Teasy, which Mushrooms are better Green or Red?
Poor deluded kid...
Poor deluded kid...
Teasy said:
Uh, what? Voodoo2 ran at 90MHz and had two TCU's.
Single texture is 90Mp/s, 90Mt/s.
Dual texture is 90Mp/s, 180Mt/s.
Voodoo2 can sustain 60fps at 640x480 in every known GLide game, and 800x600 as well in most of them, with a mere 2.4GB/sec segmented bandwidth. GCN has much, much more total bandwidth. So, barring computational overhead, yes, 81Mp/s should be more than enough for 480p with 8 texture layers on GCN. IN THEORY.
But then again, XGPU is ~233MHz with 4 pipelines, 2 TCU's per pipe, so it's technically over 1Gp/s with two layers, or over 500Mp/s with four layers (technically, 233Mp/s with eight, but that's in two passes).
And finally... yes, Flipper has four pipelines with one TCU each, so it can only texture four times per cycle. However due to its cache it can do eight textures per pass using two cycles.
Teasy, as i said, don't argue with me about it. It says right on facotr 5's website that they had a part in the creation of gamecube hardware. You want to keep arguing about it, then go ahead. You can argue with julian for all I care. However, you're not correct.
Who's trying to provoke anyone? It was just a friendly joke... hence the smilley face. You really need to chill out!
In other words, they are free to develop on any platform they want, yet they "chose" to work on Gamecube. Is that really that hard to understand?
Teasy, you said this. Teasy wrote:
Factor 5 are there own company, not owned by Nintendo, making games for GC because they want to.
By saying this are you NOT implying that they are free to develop on any platform they choose since they are NOT owned by nintendo?...and that platform they did choose happend to be GC? if this is true, then are you NOT providing another reason to "trust" what they say regarding Xbox? Example of what I mean would be: we can't trust what bungie says because they are owned by MS
Do you understand? We're saying something similar regarding factor 5. We can't trust what factor 5 says about xbox becuase they helped in the gamecube creation.
Whether you said it isn't really the point, they don't have to be owned to make it true Teasy and that was the point people were trying to make. Both companies have a vested interest in seeing each respected console do well! Bungie is owned by MS and Factor 5 had a part in the GC hardware creation. Right there that should rule out EITHER side when talking about competitors hardware! Once again the point people are making!
Oh my god man, whats with you? I didn't claim you said that, after the first sentace I was explaining the implication of what you're saying. By YOU saying they didn't have anything to do with the creation of gamecube hardware, you're (perhaps inadvertantly) providing an excuse for us to actually trust what they are saying about Xbox, since they wouldn't HAVE a vested interest in gamecube. This goes right back to the argument we were having with cybermerc, before you decided to confuse thigs that is.
Teasy you really don't know what we're arguing about do you? We were arguing with cybermerc and a few other over why ERP should be trusted in what he says compared to a group like factor 5. I'm not saying you can't post in this thread, I'm asking what's the "point" of your post if you weren't:
A) Agreeing with cybermerc, that ERP is "not" more honest than julian from factor 5 when talking about Xbox vrs GC.
B) Agreeing with the people that claim Factor 5 can't be trusted since they have a partnership with Nintendo and made some huge no no's when benchmarking unfinshed Xbox hardware.
So which side of the fence are you here? I saw earlier you got involved with the argument, and then asked what this stuff about Factor 5 benchmarking Xbox was all about. I think it's a good idea to understand what you're talking about before starting to argue with everyone!
if you're arguing that they are NOT totally different, then EVERYTHING you've been saying goes to proving that point does it not? Do you not want to prove how they are "NOT different", when claiming they didn't help create the Gamecube hardware, or are actually linked to Nintendo in some way that could make them biased? Do your reasons above support your opinion that Factor 5 actually CAN be trusted, or it CAN'T be trusted??? Please make up your mind!! I've seen you say in this thread, that you don't know if they can be trusted. once again, if you don't know then how or why are you arguing against people saying that ERP and facotr 5 are different?
Teasy, as I said before, you are wrong about factor 5 not having a part in the creation of the gamecube hardware. Magnum posted links above to support the claim on Factor 5's website. What factor 5 said about xbox simply can't be trusted, no matter what you think. What ERP said can be trusted since we don't have any valid reason to doubt him compared to Factor 5 (or even Bungie).
Steve Dave Part Deux
Newcomer
Actually, it can access each texture twice per pipe per cycle, and I'm sure there are applications which would benefit from such a feature. Though I am certainly not knowledgable enough to think of any.
.
where the heck is ERP? why doesn't he just
clarify what kind of benchmark did he ran?
1 texture with simple transform and no lights?
yup,xbox is faster doing really simple stuff
how well does ERP knows about and take
advantage of gamecube feature and capability?
did ERP optimize the benchmark for gamecube?
or just a quick and dirty port to gamecube?
how about those benchmarks that shows
gamecube faster than xbox?
how about them benchmarks?
where the heck is ERP? why doesn't he just
clarify what kind of benchmark did he ran?
1 texture with simple transform and no lights?
yup,xbox is faster doing really simple stuff
how well does ERP knows about and take
advantage of gamecube feature and capability?
did ERP optimize the benchmark for gamecube?
or just a quick and dirty port to gamecube?
how about those benchmarks that shows
gamecube faster than xbox?
how about them benchmarks?
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