Some question about Xbox/GC hardware

My point is that there are no grounds for dismissing any of Factor 5's claims on the basis of bias when the same conflict of interest exists with ERP.
WHAT conflict of interest? On one hand we have a developer who's only developed with Cube hardware, has shipped one game for the Cube, has developed tools for it, and sugarcoats everything he says about it. On the other hand we have a developer who's worked with both consoles, hasn't finished any games for them, is giving his technical knowledge of the two based upon his experience working with them, and providing this knowledge on a technical forum with no strings attached.. ie: not in representation of the company he works/has worked for and no obligation to provide such information.

ERP's biased toward the Xbox? Biased toward the Cube? Biased against the Cube? What is it and exactly how? Please point this out oh noble one :rolleyes:
Nonsense.
I don't remember Julian ever going in-depth on both consoles and comparing/contrasting the two based on their technicalities or based on his experience with both platforms (he only has experience with one platform).
I'll try to find it.
Which he also made very clear.
Really? So when comparing the two he said "The Xbox hardware I'm comparing the near-final Cube to is actually early Alpha hardware that is nowhere near the final silicon or performance" ?
Not to pass judgement on him (ERP).
I'd say you're passing quite a bit of judgement on him: proclaiming he's biased to counter the attack on Julian's credibility, and completely ignoring the credentials that set the two men apart.
So has Julian.
Really? Point it out.
I'm uncomfortable with your perception of reality.
Not surprising from someone whose own perception of reality is horribly skewed ;)
 
ERP has said in the past that Xbox is more powerful than GCN...yes and everyone is aware of that even the GCN fans.

ERP also said that NV2X is faster than Flipper...yes and everyone is aware of that even GCN fans.

ERP also said that there are some things that can be done on NV2X that couldn't be done on Flipper and vice versa...yes everyone is also aware of that.

Ok the important thing here is how much more powerful, faster, etc.? Significantly more? Enough to be noticable in a game?

Just keep in mind that 80 mph is faster than 75 mph and a 12 volt battery is more powerful than a 10 volt battery. Also a Yamaha R1 with a 150 hp inline 4 is faster than a Viper with a 450 hp V10 ;)
 
DeathKnight:

> sugarcoats everything he says about it.

Who are you to say that he sugarcoats anything? Have you worked on it? Do you have access to the full documentation? Please shut the fuck up.

> On the other hand we have a developer who's worked with both
> consoles

ERP hasn't done anymore work on Cube than Factor 5 has on the Xbox.

> is giving his technical knowledge of the two based upon his experience
> working with them

Same thing Factor 5 was doing.

> ERP's biased toward the Xbox?

Yes... he even said that himself once. Unlike you and the Xbox minions on this board ERP has no problem admitting that he has preferences. Like I said, it's human to be biased. Complete objectivity exists only in theory.

> I don't remember Julian ever going in-depth on both consoles

Of course not. You choose to ignore what you don't want to hear.

> (he only has experience with one platform).

False.

> Really?

Yes. When he compared the performance of the SpaceWorld Star Wars demo running on early Cube hardware and XDK Phase 1 he made sure to point out that the XDK wasn't final hardware.

> I'd say you're passing quite a bit of judgement on him

Were you dropped on the floor as a child? I honestly don't know how I can make it more clear. I am countering your retarded arguments by using ERP as an example. I don't take sides, I don't claim one to more trustworthy than the other. I'm merely pointing out that preferences aside Factor 5 and Boss Games/Julian E. and ERP have surprisingly many things in common.

If you can't see that please do give your parents' my condolences.

> proclaiming he's biased to counter the attack on Julian's credibility

I'm glad you use the word "attack". It's very telling.

> and completely ignoring the credentials that set the two men apart.

I've called them both competent and credible. Credentials are largely irrelevant because the discussion isn't about Julian and ERP. It's about mind-numbingly dense Xbots such as yourself.

> Really? Point it out.

I find it amusing that you can remember that Julian compared Cube and Xbox but not everything else he said. Selective memory is certainly a way to create an argument when you don't have one.

Julian has posted about Xbox and Cube many times at Maniac Online. I'd link you to the posts but MO doesn't keep posts for very long.

> Not surprising from someone whose own perception of reality is horribly
> skewed

Yes, and you're the very embodiment of objectivity.
 
Hey! :eek:
I am just interested to see what F5 have in store for the Cube hardware. They made RL, first gen GC game, which still looked amazing on any platform to date.

If their new game, is as amazingly good looking as they said, it would certainly blow away all known GC games, easily.

It would be a better benchmark for the GC hardware than current GC games.
Cube hardware is so under rated. We have the usual PS2 and Xbox shitnz while Cube is hardly mentioned at all.
 
-ERP hasn't done anymore work on Cube than Factor 5 has on the Xbox-

You missed cyberman's point. :p
 
F5 works exclusively on GC. Erp works on atleast GC & Xbox. Therefore, Erp has done more work on the GC than F5 has done on the Xbox.

edit: before cybermerc goes schitzo, I guess I should clarify that Erp is shipping a game on Xbox, while F5 are not. Julian E. may have poked an XDK with a screwdriver, but his job is to make GC games. Erps job is to make GC & Xbox games.
 
cybamerc said:
Please shut the fuck up.

Why not try to calm down a little?

I always liked Beyond3d and its reasonable discussions. Your sort of posting style doesn't really fit in too well I don't think :-?
 
Chap, cybermercs point isn't valid.

Factor 5 only looked at the first revision of the Xbox that that was just a a windows 2000 PC with a geforce 2 in it. Factor 5 didn't even run those BS benchamrks on the next rev of the hardware that contained a geforce 3 in a PC. No matter what way you look at it (cybermerc), Julian from factor 5 benchmarked a system that wasn't even close to the actual performance of Xbox. He knew perfectly what he was doing since every dev knew final hardware was coming later on.

Just to be clear, they NEVER even looked at the final hardware which is a a hell of a lot faster than the PC based early versions. I really wish you'd drop this argument.

ERP has worked with final hardware on BOTH platforms, and he doesn't have any reason to declare either hardware faster when it isn't. You (cybermerc) trying to discredit ERP is simply foolish and fanish. Factor 5 had a part in designing the audio hardware for gamecube. They obviously have a vested interest in not saying that the Xbox was better or faster. Did ERP design any of the xbox hardware? NO of course he didn't! So don't say he's no more trustrowthy than anyone from factor 5.

This is just like the BS Julian put forth about the xbox audio hardware in the past. Saying how dolby digital couldn't be done in realtime on xbox due to latency (which was NOT true).
 
zurich:

> ...except for the GC dev kit on his desk.

ERP was doing R&D on the Cube, not actual development.

> F5 works exclusively on GC.

Only after extensive Xbox testing.

> Erp works on atleast GC & Xbox.

Not when he worked for Boss Games.

> Therefore, Erp has done more work on the GC than F5 has done on the
> Xbox.

Nonsense.

> I guess I should clarify that Erp is shipping a game on Xbox, while F5
> are not.

Well, if he's shipping a game for Xbox I assume it won't be for a while since Boss Games is dead.

> Erps job is to make GC & Xbox games.

Who does he work for now? You seem to know.


Ozymandis:

> Why not try to calm down a little?

I will when I no longer feel like I'm talking to a door.

I am baffled by complete lack of reading skills, logic and sensibleness expressed by some posters on this board.
 
Cybermerc,

ERP was doing R&D on the Cube, not actual development.

I dont' think you're qualified to even know the difference. while doing R&D on the cube he ran benchmarks.

Only after extensive Xbox testing.

HA, extensive testing of a PC with a geforce 2 in it. They never benchmarked final hardware. For good reason too. I know you won't listen sine you're just being difficult even though it's the truth. If your going to argue, prove me wrong.

Not when he worked for Boss Games.

He was working on both platforms. Stop talking about what you don't understand!

Nonsense.

No, not nonesense. It's true! he was working with MS on the xbox long before many other developers. I hope you can atleast admit he's done WAY more work on Xbox than factor 5. like I said before, factor 5 only did benchmarks on the oringinal PC hardware, and NOT the final hardware from wht I remember.

Well, if he's shipping a game for Xbox I assume it won't be for a while since Boss Games is dead

Now you're just being disrespectful. Quit being an annoyance.
 
Qroach:

> Factor 5 only looked at the first revision of the Xbox that that was just a
> a windows 2000 PC with a geforce 2 in it.

That's not true.

> Factor 5 didn't even run those BS benchamrks on the next rev of the
> hardware that contained a geforce 3 in a PC.

That is most likely true. The socalled "BS benchmrks" were just a few demos specifically created for SW.

> Julian from factor 5 benchmarked a system that wasn't even close to
> the actual performance of Xbox.

Something he also made clear. Also, please refrain from using the word benchmark about a few demos done in a couple of weeks time. Benchmarking implies that the performance is measured in a scientifically responsible manner which was not the case with the Star Wars demos. Something Julian never claimed was the case either.

> I really wish you'd drop this argument.

I really wish you'd stop lying.

> ERP has worked with final hardware on BOTH platforms

So has Factor 5.

> You (cybermerc) trying to discredit ERP is simply foolish and fanish.

Is there a special genetic defect that prevents you Xbox supporters from reading something in its proper context?

> They obviously have a vested interest in not saying that the Xbox was
> better or faster.

Not outside of audio hardware. And OS to some extent.

> So don't say he's no more trustrowthy than anyone from factor 5.

I haven't. Learn to read.

> Saying how dolby digital couldn't be done in realtime on xbox due to
> latency

Haha... All he said was that Factor 5 decided against DICE because they felt that the latency was too high. I'm still waiting for a quote where he specifically states that DD isn't possible in realtime on the Xbox. I don't deny he has criticized DICE (which is Dolby tech so no need for all you Xbots to take it so personally).

> while doing R&D on the cube he ran benchmarks.

While doing R&D on the Xbox Factor 5 ran benchmarks.

> If your going to argue, prove me wrong.

Same to you.

> He was working on both platforms.

If R&D qualifies as working on a platform then so was Factor 5.

> I hope you can atleast admit he's done WAY more work on Xbox than
> factor 5.

Yes, without a doubt. And I hope you can at least admit that Factor 5 has done WAY more work on GameCube than ERP.

> Now you're just being disrespectful.

Well, either zurich believes that ERP is still working for Boss Games or he knows where ERP is working now. I'm just trying to find out what it is.
 
Cybermerc,

That's not true.

Yes it is. If I'm wrong then post a link to the article when Julian benchmarked the xbox hardware and look at the date. I can admit that I'm wrong if you can prove it.

That is most likely true. The socalled "BS benchmrks" were just a few demos specifically created for SW.

So now you say it's true? I'm glad you agree. I called them "BS" becuase they compared final gamecube hardware to what was basically a PC at the time. A pC with a geforce 2 and AGP4X.

Something he also made clear. Also, please refrain from using the word benchmark about a few demos done in a couple of weeks time. Benchmarking implies that the performance is measured in a scientifically responsible manner which was not the case with the Star Wars demos. Something Julian never claimed was the case either.

That's what he did though, he benchmarked the hardware. He benchmarked the hardware performance and declared the Xbox to be less powerful than the Gamecube. The thing is, you are correct in that he didn't perform these benchmarks in a responsible manner. It caused a ton of confusion and led to MANY misconceptions on the internet. This is exactly why Factor 5's comments can't be trusted. Did ERP do such a thing? no, he performed benchmarks on the final hardware for both platforms and his results are very clear.

So really, why are you arguing with people about his credibility(trying to say he "can" be trusted as much as julian)? When you even admit that Julian has a vested interest in not saying Xbox is better in any way.

I really wish you'd stop lying.

How old are you cybermerc, I'm curious? You claim I'm lying, well prove me wrong. i have no reason to lie about anything around here. I work on games on all paltforms. How about you? Do you work on games on all platforms?

So has Factor 5.

No they haven't. If I'm wrong I'll gladly admit that. Prove me wrong then...

Is there a special genetic defect that prevents you Xbox supporters from reading something in its proper context?

That's exactly what you are doing. People in this thread discredit Factor 5's comments for a number of reasons:

1. Factor 5 helped design the gamecube audio hardware
2. They performed benchmarks on non final hardware
3. They made claims of things about xbox hardware without knowing the truth (which could be found out by doing some R&D on the final hardware).

Perhaps it's you that has the genetic defect, since you are the person that claims ERPs comments can be trusted as much as factor 5. Which is essentially an attempt to discredit ERP and disregard his comments if we o the same with julian/factor5. An attempt that failed honestly. ERP hasn't done anything like the things above, so we have no reason to doubt him.

Sure you can say he company once worked on a xbox exclusive title, but that changed so long ago that it doesn't have any impact on him getting gamecube hardware and seeing what it can do (in comparison). in fact, he should be angry with MS for dropping his title. However he isn't.

Not outside of audio hardware. And OS to some extent.

So now you at least admit Factor 5 does have a vested interest in NOT saying xbox is more powerful. WEll, I'm glad you're being resonable on this. I fully agree.

I haven't. Learn to read.

You implied it. learn to argue.

Haha... All he said was that Factor 5 decided against DICE because they felt that the latency was too high. I'm still waiting for a quote where he specifically states that DD isn't possible in realtime on the Xbox. I don't deny he has criticized DICE (which is Dolby tech so no need for all you Xbots to take it so personally).

That claim of Julians lead to MANY more arguments and misconceptions about xbox, which simply aren't true.

While doing R&D on the Xbox Factor 5 ran benchmarks.

On a PC with a geforce 2. They haven't performed ANY behcmarks since then. I hoep you see where I'm going with this, becuase you've already admitted that tey did benchmark with early hardware, but you haven't show any bechamarks with current hardware, now have you?

If R&D qualifies as working on a platform then so was Factor 5.

NOT when the only platform Factor 5 worked with is no longer in use by Xbox devs.

Yes, without a doubt. And I hope you can at least admit that Factor 5 has done WAY more work on GameCube than ERP.

Sure I can admit that, but the only difference is that ERP worked with FINAL Xbox hardware, unlike factor 5.

Well, either zurich believes that ERP is still working for Boss Games or he knows where ERP is working now. I'm just trying to find out what it is.

I'm not talking about zurich, I'm talking about you being disrespectful to ERP with your, "he hasn't shipped a game comment". That was uncalled for.
 
On one hand we have a developer who's only developed with Cube hardware, has shipped one game for the Cube, has developed tools for it, and sugarcoats everything he says about it. On the other hand we have a developer who's worked with both consoles, hasn't finished any games for them, is giving his technical knowledge of the two based upon his experience working with them, and providing this knowledge on a technical forum with no strings attached.. ie: not in representation of the company he works/has worked for and no obligation to provide such information.

But the problem here is that is just your perception isn't it?.. not fact at all. When you read a comment from Julian, no matter what it is, you assume its sugar coated towards GC. But when you read a comment from ERP you assume its not sugar coated. They're just assumptions.

What people here, like yourself, don't seem to get is that Cybamerc has not said ERP is not a credible siource. He has only said he is not more or less credible then Julian. So if you attack Julians credibility with the reasons you are giving those same reasons could be pointed at ERP. The only people here actually attacking someone's credibility are people like yourself attacking Julians credibility.

edit: before cybermerc goes schitzo, I guess I should clarify that Erp is shipping a game on Xbox, while F5 are not.

See, this is what I'm talking about, a perfect example in fact. Your argument that ERP is shipping an XBox game while Julian is not, can then be turned around as Julian is shipping/has shipped a GC game and ERP has not.

So what are we saying here? That Julian has no expeirence with XBox because he has not shipped an XBox game? Which would then mean that ERP has no experience with GC because he hasn't shipped a GC game? See, the argument is majorly flawed.
 
The obvious facts:

1. ERP is just as credible as Julian of Factor 5, and probably moreso when it concerns the Xbox.

2. Cybamerc is wrong.

3. QRoach is right.

QRoach, I can't believe you bother arguing with Cybamerc the MS-hating fanboy. It's a waste of your precious time.
 
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