Shinobi gets 6/10 in PSM

[Mr. Angry Pants]

Oh yeah, because relating to Koompa stomping Italian plumbers, blue hedgehogs and integalactic Marine Soldiers is so much easier....

I'm no longer interested in playing a Sonic game, no matter how good it is. Becuase, you're right, I can't relate in any way to a blue hedgehog.

And who doesn't want to be an intergalactic space marine? Sure, you can't actually relate to him, but atleast you wouldn't mind being in his shoes for a day. Sociopathic killers on the other hand...

As for Mario, well, sometimes when Mrs. Angry Pants isn't around, I like to dress up in nothing but big red over-alls, eat mushrooms, and pretend I'm jumping on big eyed turtles so that I can boost myself up high enough to grab that magic star (usually a light fixture).

Now, this is all just me. If you like to fantasize about being a blue hedgehog with a homosexual three-tailed flying fox for a friend, that's your bag m8t.

 

[marconelly!]

Therefore SMS could never do anything as revolutionary as that and so was rated worse even though its a better game. GTA3:VC will not do anything as revolutionary as bringing to series into a full 3d world, so its likely it won't get as good an overall score.

GT3 got better scores than GT2. TPHS2 got better scores than THPS. Obviosly, reviewers thought they did something more revolutionary. Or they simply were better games...

 

[Ozymandis]

GTA3 became boring and repetative three hours into the game just like GTA1 and GTA2 did.

That is EXACTLY how I feel about GTA3. The whole series, actually. Cool concept, gets tiresome very quickly.

As of right now, I have no plans to buy Vice City. As a gift for someone else, or a game to impress my casual friends, perhaps.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Darren-

GTA3 was and is a very good game. Although I don't think the game itself deserved quite as high as score as it got.

I've asked this before and have yet to see a good answer so perhaps you can provide one. What is so good about GTA3 in terms of gameplay? All of the play mechanics come across as very weak, lacking any sort of polish and the game lacks cohesive direction or even mechanics in terms of advancement for that matter(the missions are certinaly not rmaped even slightly linear in terms of challenge or time to complete).

I thought it was one of the best games of all time!.. the atmosphere was tremendous, thanks to the excellent story telling. The visuals were really great, and action was brilliant, I never got sick of shooting people , and the slow mo bit just added something wonderful to the game IMO.

MP was all about concept. I personally did not like the story at all, it was Hollywood B movie action script the whole way IMO. The gameplay however- carbon copy level design(outside of the platformer segments(ugh) and the final level which was clearly a Matrix rip although far better then any of the others). The play mechanice weren't particularly well flushed out and the BT added serious balance issues to the game(it was simply way too easy). MP is a game I see that's a lot like GTA3- all concept no substance.

Marconelly-

Max Payne a bad game? I don't think so, and Teasy listed some positive things with which I agree. As for B&W, most gamers thought it was abysimal.

Both games sold very well and overall got extremely positive reviews which was the criteria you listed for GTA3. MaxPayne is a lot like GTA3- all concept.

As for ID4, most reviews marked it as a terrible movie.

Not so with GTA3. It shares appraisal among both gamers and reviewers.

How many reviewers bother to break a game down to its core elements and see how well in functions as a game in terms of gameplay? That is what movie critics do, and it is a major difference between the two markets. Simply look at the glowing reviews Black&White landed- another game that was all concept and virtually no execution. It's fairly obvious if you release a game that has a 'cool' theme you will land yourself good reviews from the majority of reviewers even if your game is utter crap.

Not so with GTA3. It shares appraisal among both gamers and reviewers.

ID4 was widely enjoyed by movie audiences. The thing that seperates a movie critic from a regular person is their ability to break a film down to see what is good and what isn't. Most game reviewers don't do this.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

I agree with everything you said Ben, but it doesn't change the fact that this is the same pointless discussion we have over and over again.

You, me, and Ozy will go to our graves as the only guys who think GTA3 is crap. It's a game where you can do anything you want using the worst play mechanics possible.

Most people here know that I'm no PS2 lover, but if they dropped to $149 I might pick one up with ICO, Maximo, Mark of Kri, VF4, and Shinobi. GTA3 wouldn't even be on my radar.

 

[marconelly!]

Ben, you will have to come up with something better than "all game reviewers, and the rest of the world suck, and I'm better than them" concept if you are going to make people respect your opinion. Sorry old man, but that just made laugh!

You know what kind of people think everyone's crazy but them, do you?

 

[BenSkywalker]

Johnny-

You, me, and Ozy will go to our graves as the only guys who think GTA3 is crap.

Don't forget V3

It's a game where you can do anything you want using the worst play mechanics possible.

Amen to that

Marconelly-

Ben, you will have to come up with something better than "all game reviewers, and the rest of the world suck, and I'm better than them" concept if you are going to make people respect your opinion.

Rant time?

First up, the game starts off with a very weak storyline having you as an escaped convict jumping around comitting crimes in order to progress your ranks in the criminal world. Problem is, there is no real coherency throughout any of the early portion of the game and you work seems to be random and contradictory while you are progressing. This disjointed continuity in theme removes anything resembling a decent story line which I think pretty much everyone would agree is a weakness that GTA3 has. Having a story isn't really necessary to have a good game however, just eliminating that as a possible strong point right off.

So then you start off with the play mechanics, thrusting you right off in to the third person mode that is popular with many styles of games and in itself wouldn't be a problem. Your first goal is to steal a car, which is appropriate given that it is Grand Theft Auto after all. How do you steal a car in GTA3? Since the city is known for its horrendous crime rate of course everyone leaves the doors on their car unlocked so you just walk up and take your pick. That is, unless you want a cop car. All of the police cars in the game are locked when parked, the only vehicles in the entire game. So what do you with these cars that you simply walk up and take? Drive around rather aimlessly. This could have been an enjoyable aspect but there are a few problems, like everything about driving. The control mechanics on the driving portion are incredibly sloppy to put it mildly, there is nothing resembling a physics engine and the car you destroy will get trashed with the greatest of ease(run in to a trash barrel at 5MPH and the whole front end of you car is wrecked). Driving in the game is a chore more then anything.

When in the car, unless a cop witnessed you stealing the vehicle first hand you have no problem getting away with it. Including pulling back up to the person you stole the car from, they won't even notice you driving their car right up to them, or over them. Then there is the whole way in which you maintain a car- look up the street and if you don't see what you like simply turn your head and turn back around- there will be a different set of cars. This removes any sort of realism from the game. So far we have no story, piss poor driving mechanics and a complete lack of realism.

Then you have the times when you are on foot. Due to a combination of the control system and the way the game is designed with horrendous AI and a poor layout for given confrontations there is no strategic element brought in to play for the overwhelming majority of the game. It is a random shotgun blast in terms of battle mechanics. There is less a feel of a showdown and more of a feel of anarchy with random shots being fired. Opponents don't try and take up strategic angles or approach you with tactics that even a five year old child would use(run for cover for instance), there is no element of challenge or sense of accomplishment commiting what amounts to a drive by shooting on foot.

Next up we have the missions. Leading a bunch of hardened gangsters to their death using an ice cream truck.... OK. The missions do not ramp in difficulty, nor length, nor amount of intelligence needed to complete them. The variety of them could be seen as a positive except that the missions themselves are boring and extremely simplistic. You wander around acting out the life of a thug without any real reasoning as to why.

So you have no direction and sloppy gameplay mechanics on foot.

Then there are the cops. Cops simply charge at you blindly, without the slightest hint of intelligence. They act more like stoned gang bangers then law enforcement agents. If the police used tactics that required you to think either in terms of plotting an escpae or in battle it could have saved the game. That isn't the case. The only way in which the police change their tactics is bringing bigger 'guns' out after you. Even then, despite having the intelligence to lock their cruisers in the parking lot they leave the tank unlocked while driving it....?

Now we are looking at an open ended game with poor gameplay mechanics and lacking so much as even a worthy premise for your efforts.

GTA3 is all about teenage fantasies involving being a 'bad ass'. That is the sole "redeeming" quality of the game. It has no merit in gameplay, story, mechanics or any other angle that should be used to judge games(even the graphics are piss poor).

 

[marconelly!]

And you claim you are not bitter or jaded?

If I had time, and was dedicated like you, I could deconstruct and present in a bad light absolutely any game, movie or book I wanted. Nothing is perfect, and nothing is impenetrable to criticism (especially if you hate it enough).

However, you are just one critic among many. Your opinion is important to you, but not necessairly to the rest of the world, especially since you are so heavily outnumbered, and with your stance of putting yourself as some kind of authority over the rest of them.

 

[nonamer]

I agree fully with Ben. I guess it's a "fun" game, in the same way I find fun playing Starcraft with all cheat codes on.

 

[Logan Leonhart]

I think Ben is just one of those guys that loves to hate everything that is popular. It is a fact that most people love GTA3 because of its gameplay. I haven´t played it myself, mind you, but everyone seemed to love the freedom of doing whatever they wanted in a coherent world that offered many routes to accomplish different objectives.
Heck, I can even make Halo look like crap if I wanted to (...and if I had an Xbox). Fact is, superficial rethorics can help you convince other people of your pov, even if it´s wrong. A AAA game is still a AAA game, even if a particlar person doesn´t like t. To think that way is just showing your egotistical and selfish way of thinking. To ilustrate it better, this is the reasoning: "I hate the game (for whatever reason), therefore, the game is crap".

 

[zurich]

I agree with Ben. Blech. I bought it used, played it, then found out it served better as trade fodder at EB ($60!). I made a profit off it actually

zurich

 

[BenSkywalker]

Marconelly!-

And you claim you are not bitter or jaded?

I'm not. I rated ED, JKII, Mafia and MonkeyBall higher then their average reivew scores as a few examples. They pulled that off with their primary strength being gameplay however, not premise.

If I had time, and was dedicated like you, I could deconstruct and present in a bad light absolutely any game, movie or book I wanted.

What is good about GTA3 is the question, and one that I have yet to hear an answer to. Pointing out the flaws in anything is easy, the strengths should be just as easy to articulate. If anyone can point me to a review that explains why the gameplay in GTA3 is even so much as above average I would appreciate it(and by pointing out I mean an actual explenation- not simply stating it is so).

However, you are just one critic among many.

Point me to a decent positive critique of GTA3. Not simple gushing over the premise, or mentioning yet again that you can wander around(which has been done prior to and with less restrictions then in GTA3 also- one third of the city at a time...?).

Logan-

I think Ben is just one of those guys that loves to hate everything that is popular.

No, I just don't care if something is popular or not. I'm not arguing GTA's selling power or its mass market appeal, simply if it is any good.

I haven´t played it myself, mind you, but everyone seemed to love the freedom of doing whatever they wanted in a coherent world that offered many routes to accomplish different objectives.

Play the game is all I can say to that

To ilustrate it better, this is the reasoning: "I hate the game (for whatever reason), therefore, the game is crap".

If you have any worth as a critic you will avoid issues where you review something that you know going in you won't like(I don't do RTSs for that reason). There is also the ability to seperate out your taste and how something stacks up on a critical basis. I greatly enjoy the movie "Waterboy" with Adam Sandler despite the fact that it is without a doubt a very bad movie on any critical level.

Heck, I can even make Halo look like crap if I wanted to

And I could debate the points with you comparing the strengths and weaknesses of the title. Noone has told me what the good points of GTA3, as a game, are yet(nor can I find them in reviews).

A AAA game is still a AAA game, even if a particlar person doesn´t like t.

If by AAA you mean system seller or 'blockbuster' then I agree. If you mean quality in the case of GTA3 I would have to say that I have yet to see the reasoning behind that assertion.

Zurich and NoNmaer-

There are more of us? As of this point, are we nearing an equal split in terms of gamers on this board who didn't like the game and those that did(that actually played it)? We have myself, Johnny, Ozy, V3, Zurich and NoNamer. Who here likes the game? Marconelly!, Vince and Darren are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[Thowllly]

I love GTA3.

Edit: Maybe we should have a poll?

 

[Teasy]

marconelly!

GT3 got better scores than GT2. TPHS2 got better scores than THPS. Obviosly, reviewers thought they did something more revolutionary. Or they simply were better games...

You've completely missed my point. Of course GTA3 got better scores then GTA2, GTA3 took the series into a fully 3d world. that was revolutionary. What will GTA3:VC do that is THAT revolutionary?

Ben

MP was all about concept. I personally did not like the story at all, it was Hollywood B movie action script the whole way IMO.

Which fitted the game perfectly.

The gameplay however- carbon copy level design(outside of the platformer segments(ugh) and the final level which was clearly a Matrix rip although far better then any of the others). The play mechanice weren't particularly well flushed out and the BT added serious balance issues to the game(it was simply way too easy). MP is a game I see that's a lot like GTA3- all concept no substance.

Personally I don't care what any of it might have been copied off, I loved it. BT only made the game as easy as you wanted it to be, I didn't use it all the time, just when I thought it was appropriate (when it was dramatic). I don't know what you mean about no substance.

I've asked this before and have yet to see a good answer so perhaps you can provide one. What is so good about GTA3 in terms of gameplay?

For a start its very free, lots and lots of missions and little bits and peices to choose from at any given time. You can go to get a mission from a few different people. Or you can steal a taxi and have some crazy taxi style fun taxi'ing people around, or you can steal a fire engine and go around putting out fires (the the same for many other vehicles). Or you can have a car chase with the police, or just go for a drive around and do some stunt jumps on the many ramps around the place. You can do many other things to. For me it gets boring quinckly now, but I still do play the game for 20 minutes here and there. Also despite the fact that it gets boring for me I'm not blind to the fact that others might not get bored so quinckly. The controls were good and easy to use, the car driving was extremely well done IMO, I really liked flying about the streets hand braking around corners. I also like having a car chase with the police every now and then. The game has some big flaws yeah, but its a very good game with allot of possitives.

Having read your other posts I cannot believe your comments on the car driving being poor, it seems brillaint to me, better then most racing games I've played. Also you name a few things that are realistic, and then you complain that the missions do not get progressively harder. Well what would be realistic about that? Do you think gangsters get a clump of missions together and then rate them on difficulty and send out there guy on each mission which each one getting harder and harder along the way?

I agree with allot of stuff, the people ate incredibly stupid, the cops are stupid, allof of it doesn't make sense, but that does not take away from the good points of the game. As I said I don't think the game deserved the scores it got, but that does not mean its not a very good game.

 

[marconelly!]

You've completely missed my point. Of course GTA3 got better scores then GTA2, GTA3 took the series into a fully 3d world. that was revolutionary. What will GTA3:VC do that is THAT revolutionary?

Teasy - GT as Gran Turismo.

Gran Turismo 3 got Better scores than Gran Turismo 2.
Tony Hawk 2 got better scores than Tony Hawk

 

[Teasy]

Teasy - GT as Gran Turismo

Ah right.

GT2 wasn't revolutionary though was it, it was a really good game but nothing startling. SMS and GTA3:VC are following quite revolutionary games (well SM64 was revolutionary, but GTA3 was sort of revolutionary but not quite, more like it had WOW factor). SM64 was the first 3d platformer and GTA3 was the first of its kind to have a full 3d world. Even if GTA3:VC is better then GTA3 I doubt it'll get better all round scores. But I might end up being wrong, lets just wait and see.

 

[LogisticX]

What is good about GTA3 is the question, and one that I have yet to hear an answer to. Pointing out the flaws in anything is easy, the strengths should be just as easy to articulate. If anyone can point me to a review that explains why the gameplay in GTA3 is even so much as above average I would appreciate it(and by pointing out I mean an actual explenation- not simply stating it is so).

Did you really need someone to point it out for you? If the countless reviews by critics and fans alike hasn't given you a clue, then nobody here is going to make it any clearer. I must be crazy because I find GTA3's quality lies in that its so FUN to play...regardless if any one part of its mechanics are flawed. The product as a whole, the attention to detail and just the way its designed makes up for the little flaws within each part.


Can you explain why you like the taste of one thing over another? Could you explain why you like bitter better than sweet, salty better than sugary?


Good luck.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

The attention to detail? LOL.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Darren-

just when I thought it was appropriate (when it was dramatic). I don't know what you mean about no substance.

You are talking about a gameplay element being utilized to add drama, that fairly well sums up no substance

For a start its very free, lots and lots of missions and little bits and peices to choose from at any given time.

It's non linear, we have seen that done many times prior to GTA3 and in and of itself it is neither a pro nor a con(same with linear gameplay).

Or you can steal a taxi and have some crazy taxi style fun taxi'ing people around, or you can steal a fire engine and go around putting out fires (the the same for many other vehicles). Or you can have a car chase with the police, or just go for a drive around and do some stunt jumps on the many ramps around the place. You can do many other things to.

There are several gameplay elements in place, again it has been done numerous times before.

For me it gets boring quinckly now, but I still do play the game for 20 minutes here and there.

Did you complete or beat the game?

Having read your other posts I cannot believe your comments on the car driving being poor, it seems brillaint to me, better then most racing games I've played.

You need some better racing games How frequently do you keep a car for more then a half hour at a time?

Also you name a few things that are realistic, and then you complain that the missions do not get progressively harder. Well what would be realistic about that? Do you think gangsters get a clump of missions together and then rate them on difficulty and send out there guy on each mission which each one getting harder and harder along the way?

Once you prove yourself you are trusted with more difficult tasks. This goes for gansters just as it does military. You think you could walk off the street and enter the SAS right off? Seriously though, once you reach a certain level of reputation your tasks are likely to wander in terms of difficulty, but to start with(remember this guy is an unknown who just broke out of a prison transport) you would certainly slowly work your way up the criminal ladder.

Marconelly-

Did you really need someone to point it out for you?

I'm still waiting. Darren has offered the closest to an explenation that I have seen so far. I have read a slew of reviews on the game, including PC reviews where reviewers who had previously given the game a perfect score said they made it further in the PC version then they did on the PS2(giving a game a perfect score while you couldn't even stomach playing it long enough to beat it...?).

Can you explain why you like the taste of one thing over another?

My taste buds stimulate the nerves in my brain that I find more pleasing depending on the type of food I am consuming. That would be more akin to asking to explain why you like a certain type of game which I am not asking people to do. I want to know what about this particular game people like.

How hard do you think it would be to explain why you prefer a freshly made Lindtt ball over a stale Reese's?

 

[Teasy]

You are talking about a gameplay element being utilized to add drama, that fairly well sums up no substance

In what way does adding some extra drama to a game give a game no substance?

It's non linear, we have seen that done many times prior to GTA3 and in and of itself it is neither a pro nor a con(same with linear gameplay).

I've seen many things done before, it does not mean its not a good thing.

Up until GTA3 I had never seen a 3D game that gave so much freedom, allot of it is gimicky yes, and the game is not the best in the world and does not deserve the scores it got (allot of that was people going "WOW look at the big 3d world.. this is great" but it is a very good game IMO.

There are several gameplay elements in place, again it has been done numerous times before.

Since when is unique always good?

Did you complete or beat the game?

No, I would have though if I hadn't re-installed my PC and lost the saves (I backed them up but the CD I used to backup was faulty). Its not the sort of game to keep my absolutely gripped right up to the end, but I think I would have completed it, although I can't be absolutely sure obviously. Of course I'm not going to start again and go right through it now, because I really would get bored of it too quickly now.

You need some better racing games How frequently do you keep a car for more then a half hour at a time?

I'm not a big racing game fan, but I've been known to play racing games in the past (I liked NFS5).

I don't keep a car for an hour at a time. But then I can have any car in the game, so I rarely keep any car even if its in perfect condition. Also there's a hell of allot more cars on the roads in GTA3 then any racing game I've played, so its bound to be harder to keep the car in good condition.

I agree that the cars smash up a little to easy but that doesn't really detract from the fact that the car handles very well IMO, which is the most important thing to me. I can drive along at high speed through traffic, hand brake round corners and not get a scratch on me often, which is quite an acheivement and a testement to the good handling of the cars AFAICS. Of course often I hit something, but then I'm not driving around at 30 miles per hour and stopping at red lights here . I'm flying along at break neck speed and doing hand brake turns from corners.. I wouldn't expect to last long in a real life conjested city while doing that, would you?

Once you prove yourself you are trusted with more difficult tasks. This goes for gansters just as it does military. You think you could walk off the street and enter the SAS right off? Seriously though, once you reach a certain level of reputation your tasks are likely to wander in terms of difficulty, but to start with(remember this guy is an unknown who just broke out of a prison transport) you would certainly slowly work your way up the criminal ladder.

To a degree yes I suppose your right, but the tasks would not increase linearly.

If your the main guy they're getting to do there dirty work then they cannot pick and choose what sort of stuff you do all the time. It depends on what they need doing really. It might be something quite simple one week, hard the next, and simple the week after. I suppose once you really get respect and trust they'd try to keep you for the more important jobs as much as possible. But if they have other people on other jobs and they need something doing and your free then they might just ask you to do something you would consider easy or boring. A job is not always about how challenging it is, even when your a hired gun, I'm sure there are meanial tasks sometimes in most jobs even for the best of there proffesions.

Also it takes time to get allot of respect, bare in mind that you work for many different people and organisations in the game, earning one persons trust and respect does not neccesarilly earn you the instant trust and respect of everyone else.

Although to be fair I haven't been able to finish the game so I don't know for sure exactly how all the missions are structured, only the ones I got through. So I admit that I may be wrong and the missions might end up as a whole being structured poorly.