Server based game augmentations. The transition to cloud. Really possible?

If the other cars are not affected by your input (which means they can drive through your car)

What ?

No it doesn't. My input affects my car. If the input has to be transmitted to a server, that'll add 10ms latency.

The physics modelling is all done server side, tyres, collision, the works. The result is transmitted back to my console, another 10-15 ms of latency. Now the server can do the physics modelling faster than the console can, so it will partly offset the transmission latency.

What does 10ms mean? Assuming you drive a sports car with decent tyres, you can brake and accelerate at around 1G (10m/s/s) that'll give you change in velocity of .36km/h or .23 mph, ie very little.

One can completely precompensate the transmission delay as the simulation can be done in advance. And for the server side simulation of your car it would of course add the complete roundtrip latency until the results arrive back at your console.

No you don't. You only need to predict the one-way latency. The console is a one-way transmission delay behind the server.

Cheers
 
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a) That 1.5mbps is shared across the system. Game updates, system updates/DRM checks, video uploading etc...

Why would the system update while you're gaming, what DRM needs to be checked when you already have been authorized to play your game ?

Why would it work differently from the 360, where background downloads are stopped when you start gaming?

b) There are 300k "servers" worldwide. Assume Forza 5 sells 0.5 million copies in your region, and your region has 100k of those servers. How many copies of a forza simulation do you expect a single server to be able to run at the same time?

What's a server? A single socket quad core machine, or a blade server with 16 dual socket blades each with eight core Xeons ?

How much is offloaded?

A server could handle anything from 1 to a thousand clients.

And how many of those same servers are serving other games/downloads/storing save games/uploading videos etc?
The load on the servers is going to be proportional to the number of users. So is revenue.

Cheers
 
Why would the system update while you're gaming, what DRM needs to be checked when you already have been authorized to play your game ?

Why would it work differently from the 360, where background downloads are stopped when you start gaming?

And your tablet? and your kids tablet? and your printer checking for a firmware update? and your set-top box downloading new movie thumbnails? and ...

Obviously you can build latency prediction etc. at which point it's probably easier just to run the whole thing locally and forget about it.

What's a server? A single socket quad core machine, or a blade server with 16 dual socket blades each with eight core Xeons ?

Given how console companies release/manage statistics, does it sound likely that a company with 28.8million cores in their cloud would claim to have just 300k servers... personally that doesn't seem likely.
 
Given how console companies release/manage statistics, does it sound likely that a company with 28.8million cores in their cloud would claim to have just 300k servers... personally that doesn't seem likely.

So what ?

They will facilitate the usage of cloud computing resources, capacity will be added as demand materializes (ie. as user base grows).

The important part is that it is part of their long term strategy and they have started building the tools for making it easy to integrate cloud computing into games.

Cheers
 
Simple, it makes no sense to define a latency for non-interactive stuff. :LOL:
No it doesn't. My input affects my car. If the input has to be transmitted to a server, that'll add 10ms latency.

The physics modelling is all done server side, tyres collision, the works. The result is transmitted back to my console, another 10-15 ms of latency.
Add this together and this is the roundtrip latency. What are you trying to discuss?
What does 10ms means? Assuming you drive a sports car with decent tyres, you can brake and accelerate around 1G (10m/s/s) that'll give you change in velocity of .36km/h or .23 mph, ie very little.
You have seen that I wrote that such a delay is usually quite tolerable (I was even mentioning some higher numbers)? ;)
No you don't. You only need to predict the one-way latency. The console is a one-way transmission delay behind the server.
And the server is a one-way transmission delay behind the console.
If we talk latency, it means the (additional) delay between some event (user input, some simulation result/collision detection on the server) and when the possible reactions to this returns from the other side (some information has made the roundtrip). It simply doesn't work any other way, you know, causality and stuff. ;)

Simple example: Some alien race on a planet 5 lightyears away has the highest power supercomputer in the universe which can handle all conceivable problems in basically no time. We send them some problems to runs and they act according to our instructions. What is the perceived latency for all situations involving human feedback to something running there is needed? Answer: 10 years.
If they ask us a question, our answer arrives there 10 years later. If we ask them a question, their answer arrives here 10 years later.

To sum it up: Every communication involving feedback (i.e. interactive) has always at least the roundtrip latency. How much problems arrise from that fact depends on the scenario of course. As I said, for racing games a latency of several 10s of ms should be tolerable.
 
Simple example: Some alien race on a planet 5 lightyears away has the highest power supercomputer in the universe which can handle all conceivable problems in basically no time. We send them some problems to runs and they act according to our instructions. What is the perceived latency for all situations involving human feedback to something running there is needed? Answer: 10 years.
If they ask us a question, our answer arrives there 10 years later. If we ask them a question, their answer arrives here 10 years later.

I've read a short story about this problem when I was a kid.
They solved asking to a mother in law that suggested that both end keep talking and talking without waiting a question.
At the moment I've not really understood what is a real revolutionary scenario for server side computing, but considering that they will not use it for low latency task, this could be a solution.
Let's say it's the physic of a flag, and I'm just throwing an example.
For the first two seconds the console uses a prebaked animation, then uses the mighty augmented setting, while the server keeps sending data about future object and /or animations that the console caches in the hdd.
Sometime the console call to ask for something new, or keep telling to the server what is going on so the server can reschedule the tasks sending just in time the response of a npc to all the last 120 hours of play.

And all this thanks to Asimov! :O
 
I've read a short story about this problem when I was a kid.
They solved asking to a mother in law that suggested that both end keep talking and talking without waiting a question.
That strategy doesn't solve anything if your goal is not to just inform the other side but to get some feedback/reaction based on your input. Both sides are probably "talking" all the time anyway and don't wait for a server side's signal (question) that it is ready to get new information (that would increase the average latency to more than the roundtrip latency, the input buffers on all sides effectively do the same, just on the other side of the line).
 
A PR person for Titan Fall said they are processing AI and physics in the cloud, but there weren't any specifics. They also said the dedicated servers Xbox Live is providing removes NAT restrictions. You won't need to worry about having "closed NAT".
 
A PR person for Titan Fall said they are processing AI and physics in the cloud, but there weren't any specifics. They also said the dedicated servers Xbox Live is providing removes NAT restrictions. You won't need to worry about having "closed NAT".

I still believe cloud use will be "for the sake" and for hype. Forza's cumulative AI is a nice use of cloud and a nice technical achievement as a learning AI, but that is an example of making good use of user statistics / behaviour and not something that you could count as 3 Xbox One's on cloud aiding your Xbox One to make your game run faster.

Titan's dedicated servers could be running a game instance that constantly corrects client-side predictions to keep everybody in sync, and that can include running physics and running AI required for non player characters (turrets, maybe unmanned titans if any), and it would be nothing to write home about.
 
Titan's dedicated servers could be running a game instance that constantly corrects client-side predictions to keep everybody in sync, and that can include running physics and running AI required for non player characters (turrets, maybe unmanned titans if any), and it would be nothing to write home about.
You mean server based multiplayer? :)
 
You mean server based multiplayer? :)

Exactly! But they are probably trying to justify it as Cloud processing enhancing your game. It's probably just good old multiplayer on dedicated servers. Not a bad thing, but misleading. But I'll gladly eat my words if TitanFall has come up with a creative use of "cloud", outside of what I mentioned.
 
Hey guys, cloud works now :LOL:

http://www.polygon.com/2013/6/12/4424022/sony-shuhei-yoshida-says-ps4-cloud-computing-calculations

Microsoft has touted the Xbox One's cloud-computing capabilities, promising that the system's hardware resources can be freed up by accessing remote servers that handle AI and physics calculations. Those remote computations, Microsoft says, will allow the Xbox One, unlike the Xbox 360, to become more powerful over time.

Sony Computer Entertainment's Shuhei Yoshida says that the PlayStation 4 can tap into similar technology, offloading processes that are typically handled locally to the cloud.

Yoshida said that "of course" PS4 developers will be able to take advantage of cloud-based computing for their titles.

Remember all that stuff we said about how cloud cant possibly work on message boards? Disregard all that.

Kidding aside, Yoshida only mentions "linking, matchmaking" as cloud things. Article is somewhat unclear.
 
any technology that uses fragment interleaving with OFDM has quote high latency all caused by the dissasembly and reassembly at the node/dslam/etc. Thats why ADSL has lower latency then ADSL2. If you look across the first world i think the latency numbers being thrown around here are way to optimistic. Assuming a DC within 1000km I would start at around 40ms just for transmission latency and work out from there.


A PR person for Titan Fall said they are processing AI and physics in the cloud, but there weren't any specifics. They also said the dedicated servers Xbox Live is providing removes NAT restrictions. You won't need to worry about having "closed NAT".

WTF is "closed NAT"?

/10 year exp designing/deploying government/defence/enterprise networks.
 
any technology that uses fragment interleaving with OFDM has quote high latency all caused by the dissasembly and reassembly at the node/dslam/etc. Thats why ADSL has lower latency then ADSL2. If you look across the first world i think the latency numbers being thrown around here are way to optimistic. Assuming a DC within 1000km I would start at around 40ms just for transmission latency and work out from there.


WTF is "closed NAT"?

/10 year exp designing/deploying government/defence/enterprise networks.


http://support.rockstargames.com/en...ding-how-NAT-types-affect-online-connectivity
 
Hey guys, cloud works now :LOL:

http://www.polygon.com/2013/6/12/4424022/sony-shuhei-yoshida-says-ps4-cloud-computing-calculations



Remember all that stuff we said about how cloud cant possibly work on message boards? Disregard all that.

Kidding aside, Yoshida only mentions "linking, matchmaking" as cloud things. Article is somewhat unclear.

Nobody says that it doesn't work I believe, everybody was discussing the limitations of it and how much PR language Microsoft threw into cloud computing.

This article only adds to the fact that numerous people have said here before: there's nothing that really stops Sony or Nintendo from using cloud power either.
 
Which is what any dedicated server does. Dedicated servers don't care about NAT. It's only an issue when you do P2P.

Exactly. There is no more P2P on Xbox Live. They are saying all online games will have dedicated servers. That's a pretty big deal for people who are into online play.
 
A pretty huge deal being glossed over, too...

Yes, I think if MS was more concentrated on dedicated server / permanence angle rather than 3 Xboxes of computing power for every Xbox freeing up local computing power, they wouldn't be getting this much flak but rather many of us would praise it for finally providing this on a paid online system.

On second note, on eurogamer:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...r-come-to-playstation-respawn-and-ea-weigh-in
Let's put it plainly: will PlayStation owners ever see Titanfall?

"It's definitely not out of the question," Emslie replied.

So whatever TitanFall is using on Xbox Cloud, it probably isn't a deal-breaker if it ever came to the Sony platform, either because it's just dedicated server functionality touted as cloud, or they are just non-critical for the game to function (betting on the former)
 
Exactly. There is no more P2P on Xbox Live. They are saying all online games will have dedicated servers. That's a pretty big deal for people who are into online play.


yea as things like this and the Family share (10 people who do not have to be related or in same house can share games) and slowly word will turn to see the over-reaction this month...


The fact that every game that wants will have dedicated servers AND built into console matchmaking system for example will slowly once again unveil the clear differences in features and quality of the Live (Server) experience.
 
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