Saddam Arrested
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WHAT!? They had a bomb one year after gaining fissionable material!? Impossible! It would be a lie to suggest a country that was compliant with the IAEA inspections could manage that, particularly Iraq. Certainly impoverished North Korea couldn't manage it, if oil rich Iraq couldn't.Natoma said:
/deep sarcasm.
Seriously, though. How could that happen if their nuclear program wasn't still operating, or at least being mantained?
What happened last year is they took the visible step of reprocessing the spend fuel rods for plutonium, because they could not hide such a thing.
The research into delivery vehicles has continued, they've managed to build places to process the spent rods (or so they've claimed), we presume they've either been researching or manufacturing the actual bomb (minus the fissionable material), and test sites, etc.
Hah. more conspiracy theories.
Saddam was caught months ago, as evidenced by unripened dates in a picture.
Saddam was caught months ago, as evidenced by unripened dates in a picture.
We can go back and forth about this Russ regarding the timelines and how much time it takes to build a bomb, and what the actual terms of the 1994 Non-Proliferation Treaty were.
The bottom line is, we had them by the balls a year ago with the ability to bomb them back into the stoneage with no reprisal whatsoever if they didn't comply. They didn't have the bomb. We've lost that chance by ignoring the situation.
The bottom line is, we had them by the balls a year ago with the ability to bomb them back into the stoneage with no reprisal whatsoever if they didn't comply. They didn't have the bomb. We've lost that chance by ignoring the situation.
Gonna have to disagree again.Natoma said:
We couldn't do anything, militarily, without risking Seoul being targetted and destroyed by a massive CONVENTIONAL artillery barrage. Not 20 years ago, not 10 years ago, not 2 years ago.
The problem with North Korea is there's no good answer. He's got us convinced he's so fucking nuts, and we know he's capable of at least destroying Seoul with conventional artillery, that we won't even risk a blockade or harsh sanctions.
If Clinton had respected the agreement with NK which delayed their nuke program 5-10 years we wouldnt have to deal with a messier situation now and maybe we'd slowly be bringing him into the modern world as China was/is... However the game of 'lets hope the people overthrow him as we only need to delay his nuke program a little while' didnt work anymore than letting the Iraqis overthrow saddam all by themselves with extremely modest support from the west after GF1 worked...
Saying that at least we know that he isnt a nut. Enough analysis has shown that hes simply shrewed with the deck of cards that has been dealt him adn he'll simply play every card to the max.
Saying that at least we know that he isnt a nut. Enough analysis has shown that hes simply shrewed with the deck of cards that has been dealt him adn he'll simply play every card to the max.
Is this thread still going on?
Not to be pedantic, but to keep things in line with the General Boards T&C:
The last 10 pages have been a form of redundancy...
Not to be pedantic, but to keep things in line with the General Boards T&C:
The last 10 pages have been a form of redundancy...
Well, there's always the Geneva convention, which prohibits the humiliation and public display of PoWs (*cough* Saddam dental check-up *cough*, *cough* hooded prisoners), taking hostages (http://www.unknownnews.net/0728-1.html), use of cluster bombs in civilian areas (http://www.redcross.ie/news/news.php3?item=171)...
CorwinB,
Don't u see? it's useless. Whatever link you provide, Whatever reason you give, all you're gonna get is a "Your argument is bullshit", "The Geneva convention is bullshit, WE DIDN'T SIGN IT". Believe me, it wouldn't be the first time.
All they're gonna come up is "arguments" according to which it is fair for the US to do whatever they do, just because it's the US. Then turn around saying we have an innate hate for the US because WE are nationalists. :|
I gave up a LOOOOOOOOONG time ago.
Don't u see? it's useless. Whatever link you provide, Whatever reason you give, all you're gonna get is a "Your argument is bullshit", "The Geneva convention is bullshit, WE DIDN'T SIGN IT". Believe me, it wouldn't be the first time.
All they're gonna come up is "arguments" according to which it is fair for the US to do whatever they do, just because it's the US. Then turn around saying we have an innate hate for the US because WE are nationalists. :|
I gave up a LOOOOOOOOONG time ago.
Going to have to disagree with your assessment that our actions in these cases violate the Geneva convention.CorwinB said:
Not sure why they did it, as it hasn't been effective in bringing in Al Douri. I could try to argue that his wife was part of his command/control, or was offering refuge, but I don't know the facts of the situation. I will say I'm not terribly embarrased by this "violation", as we're not holding his family hostage (or will kill them). If these were "hostages", we should call the entire country held hostage, as we're keeping control of them until we get what we want.
Thats another judgement call as to whether the actions violate the Geneva conventions or not. I think it was unecessary, but I'm not a military commander under the fog of war.
You could arguably say the US has violated some aspects of the Geneva Convention, an international treaty in which it is signatory, but that's a long way from your contention that the USA regularly doesn't honor treaties.
RussSchultz said:
You know, I don't think it is an unfairly given image.... it is unfortunate that to do anything 'good' a lot of 'bad' has to happen. It is unfortunate that the bad thing in the first place was put/built up there by the 'good guy'. I think the US gov't is in need of overhauling, cuz the ideals that started the US are getting lost.... unless the 'all people' changed to 'US people only'....
I agree that the Palistinian/Israel situation is in the forefront of Arab thoughts.... how could it not be.... when you watch FOX news, you think you are being terrorized this very second..... bombs about to go off around the corner everywhere.... I can't remember NOT seeing the ****TERROR ALERT HEIGHTENED**** on the banner there.... it's what you guys see over and over so it is on your minds.... we have been seeing/hearing/watching this issue (Palestine) for DECADES now.... and it suxs cuz all we hear from the west is the Palestinians are wrong, when we feel they are not.... suicide bombings, I think, started in 1994 (?) which was 27 or so years after the 'occupation' began.... if you don't watch it you at least hear from other people about how bad this occupation is.... 27 years of just taking it up the @$$ must get on your nerves at some point. (DO NOT TAKE THIS AS SOME SORT OF CONDONING OF THIS ACTION. ANY ATTACKS ON INNOCENT CIVILLIANS IS WRONG. PERIOD.)
So, yes, I do agree (and I believe rightly so) that the Palestinian/Israel issue is very important, and in the forefront of our thoughts and people here agree that it needs to be addressed.
Now, Iraq and Palestine are separate issues and separate countries and should be kept separate.
<off topic>But, do you see though how it is lumped together by a lot of people? You know, I didn't feel a connection to Iraq, other than it was another country. I didn't think of it as an 'arab' country or a 'muslim' country or something similar, although it contains lots of muslims and people of semitic heritage. I do now though just because of all the 'arabs are arabs, and muslims are muslims - all the same' B.S. that you hear so much of....
it is a funny thing that americans see themselves as separate entities from each other, but see the entire middle east as the same exact person almost.... when I hear someone from New York talking and then someone from Texas, and then someone from say Baja California and see all the different looks, feels, emotions, attitudes, pluses, minuses, etc etc, you know everyone is different. Why can't that be seen for others as well? I mean Europeans are all different also, but sometimes you don't get that feeling from America.
</off topic>
hmmm... I am not sure if I was answering a point of your above with the last couple of paragraphs, but anyway....
okay on to your last bit.
RussSchultz said:
my own countries failings.... that is a funny way to put it, because it is a relative term.
What I mean is, if you looked at Saudi just fifty years ago (blink of an eye, one generation) it was a DESERT, no running water, electricity, infrastructure, hospitals, grocery stores, cars, shopping, fast food, planes, trains, etc etc.
So, in a persons life time, they went from the desert to what they have today, which is a country with a pretty good infrastructure, basically three main cities which contain about 70% of the population, but we have the basic luxuries of life and then some, and most of it was for free for the average joe, at the time that meant absolutely no taxes - just FREE.... not so today (in the past decade or so). So I don't see my gov't as 'failing' so to speak, but rather not exceling as it could, but still doing a pretty good job. Yes there can be MASSIVE IMPROVEMENTS regarding certain things, but going from a desert to broad band has made our generation gap something not to laugh at and something that needs to be dealt with. Plus there is this same gap within the generation.... lots of people are up to date and lots are not. It is changing though and for that I am happy, because I see the movement in the correct direction, which is moderation. Seeing how things have changed so rapidly here in just the last several decades, I have hope that this latest challenge can be overcome (but I am an eternal optimist.... can't help it).
it is possible I am projecting without realizing, but I don't think of myself as doing that usually. I try to be level headed. But regarding the sheikhs (thats what we call them) preaching hatred, I agree that is bad and I am happy that we have fired several hundred and had several of them announce publicly they were wrong and apologized for their sayings etc etc. As long as we keep doing that and things WILL get better. Plus there are reforms in the Schools of which I am ECSTATIC about! I just recently had a daughter and am already looking at schools outside, but the reforms going on in the curriculums give me hope as well. So, I don't think they have 'absolute' sway, but I am sure they HAD some until recently. Now it is a matter of those that are already DISEASED and unwilling to change that need to be routed out and that is happening little by little.
nelg said:
While I am not clear what the whole question is, basically, life in Saudi is all right.
It is not the end all be all of civilzation by a long shot, but it is not bad either.
Until recently, I truly believed this was one of the safest places in the world.... I can still leave my luggage at the airport on the ground outside next to taxis and come back the next day and find it there where I left it, or in the lost and found.
I don't worry about locking my house or car, although I do from habit (lived in the US for a long time
)lets see, I want to be realistic, it is not all beds and roses (is that the correct phrase?) but it is definately on the 'all right' side of things, at least for me and my family, although that may not be a fair assessment for the average person. It is funny, but I cannot tell you what life is like for the poor or average person, except in incomplete terms, because I just don't know.
I know of some things, like gov't hospitals are free, while not the best hospitals, still it is a blessing for those who have nothing. I don't know of anyone 'starving' or like that as there are lots of food, necessities collections. Things happen all the time, for example I just had a daughter, one of the things people do is buy a calf or sheep and have it slaughtered and made available to poor people. These are old traditions that help our society, there are others similar to this. also there are monetary funds through the mosques.... it really is too bad that so many people see this money as always terrorist money, because alot goes to people.... one of the pillars of islam is the giving of alms. It is said that if everyone were to give only 2.5% of their wealth every year, that would be enough to bring poor people up to 'basic' standards (roof, toilet, food on table, electricity... basics). There are different collections meant for different things, whether it is this alms, or for orphans or for different sects of people that need different things, so you get to choose a where your money goes basically.
I can tell you about life for me. Basically, I get up in the morning, brew coffee, maybe make some eggs or on the rare occasion eat a twinkie (a weakness of mine). I read the paper. Get ready for work, go to work where I run an tech team supporting our systems. We have a strong network infrastructure with DELLs everywhere (I tell you DELL must love us, we just ordered 18,000 new machines to replace some older ones).
work is a mixture of meetings, phone calls, strategic plans, project reports, etc etc etc. calls from the family come in throughout the day (just to hear my baby girl make noises or talk to my wife who gets three months off work to take care of the baby). It was nice that all medical related things were free for us, and this is in a hospital that could contend with any hospital in the world with regards to facilities.
I get to go home for lunch time, as I only live five minutes from work. If I was living FAR away - not living were I work, I would commute at most 45 minutes. so I get to play with my baby for a little bit, get her to smile (I swear I would spend all my time acting like an idiot just for her smiles!) either we ordered out (western food like dominoes or arabic food like mushakil which is a 'mixed grill' of lamb, chicken, beef stuff, tasty, or etc).
I go back to work and but it is calmer, everyone slows down usually after lunch and internet traffic spikes. if I wasn't feeling well, I could just call in sick. I am allowed three days per month of sick leave, no questions asked. This is basic for all employees (gov't sanctioned i think actually).
I go home at 4pm (work for me is 7am to 4pm) if I am done with everything, then I usually spend some time with my family. My wife is a social butterfly and is always out and about arranging some party or going to one. In the next two weeks I have FIVE weddings to go to, two christmas parties, one new years bash, two birthdays, and my wife is throwing a 'mubaraka' which is a baby annoucement party for our daughter. And that isn't me going out to see my friends also. about three times a week we gather together and hang out - depends on the weather but we might go off roading in a jeep, rent dirt bikes and ride which is a blast, but I suck at it and end up hurting myself all the time. If its a weekend we go camping and search for old forts, ruins, or caves. We can go digging for 'sand roses' which are really pretty rocks that form underground, usually in salt flats and such places where they harden into these very kewl shapes, total fractals. Maybe do some rock climbing/repelling. We may go to the beach for a bar b q and paly volleyball or soccer, some of us will be fishing or waterskiing and jet skiing.
I mean, to me, life is all right. the things that annoy me here are stuff like:
checkpoints, these are now necessary since we had the bombings. They are all over, especially the expatriot compounds, they have tanks and netting and big machine guns everywhere. It does help though allay our fears, so it is all right.
There are two types. There is the army/national guard which guard the compounds and then there are the police that are just everywhere else. The police are annoying because they are usually not educated and don't really have a set of rules to follow, other than 'let me see your id, let me check your trunk.' That is not the problem. the problem is when one of these guys is bored and in the sun all day and grumpy and decides it is you he doesn't like. Not a big deal, but he will hassel you, who are you who is that with you? your wife? can you prove it? where is your marriage license? (who the hell carries that around?). Anyway, these idiots skimper away as soon as you push back, but a lot of people do not. It is just their own issues with their own life they are trying to get out, but damn it not on me. I used to HATE gov't offices, but now I just don't like them. They have gotten a MILLION times better and some of the BS you have to go through has been cut out, but still, there is just no reasoning behind it sometimes. a case in point is, we are trying to get my mother in law over here right now and it has taken the powers that be four months and they still are not done processing the papers. There is a problem with my mother in law coming, her passport expired 20 some odd years ago, so they are trying to find out who she is, but FOUR MONTHS?!? come on....
so... stuff like that. I am not hassled by any religious police cuz I tell them to shut up. When it is someone real, like a police officer I am cordial and such and usually things go smoothly and quickly, but when someone ma 3ndu salfah (that means has no reason) then I tell him F*#@ off. They don't like that, but they can't do much really especially now a days more and more.
Something extremely horrible here is there is no consumer protection. Basically, you pay and that is it. If it doesn't work or what have you you gotta FIGHT to get your money back. real pain in the arse. I think the biggest social problem is people don't have outlets. I mean kids cannot date, cannot mix socially, or any of that stuff officially or publicly. There is a HUGE underground movement of social life, but the problem is it is illegal and thus a 'problem' that the gov't tries to fix. They are not succeeding nor are they failing, kind of a stand still so to speak. Causes lots of stress basically for the elders in the families and malcontent and rebelliousness in the younger generation. People flock to Bahrain daily to go drinking and partying. There is a growing drug problem here as well, that is sort of at a stalemate, if not being lost by the gov't.
With all the bad stuff that goes on here, crime is VERY low. I don't hear about families killing their daughters for 'exposing' themselves, but you do hear it like once in a blue moon. In fact we usually hear it on CNN or something like that as they don't show that on the news here.
ahh... the news here is HORRIBLE. but in the last year it has also improved so much, there is a lot of good newpapers, but the tv news sucks. the papers are improving a lot and a lot of negative comments toward the gov't are printed regularly now.
There are lots of discussions going on on how to improve our society, there are lots of discussions on the issues of why Islam is portrayed the way it is. A lot of people realize the hatred that comes from the Sheikhs and Imams (I want to be clear that of the THOUSANDS and thousands that we have only a minority are really hate preachers.) needs to be stopped. I personally go to prayer on fridays (like church on sundays) for prayer AFTER the Imam spoke.... I would hate to hear him just say stupid stuff. I could see people next to me just getting depressed listening to the guy.... anyway, he is gone now.
gosh, I kinda rambled, but really life is not that bad here.... yes the summers are HOT (avg 115 to 120 F) but from Nov to maybe april we have the BEST weather.... it is SOOO nice what the hell am I doing inside?
Some of my friends who are not so well off, don't seem to be different from me..... people who grew up here their whole lives and lived here their lives.... of course, there are bad apples everywhere, but I do believe they are the minority. Any hate speech that stuck and took root, it did so in a small percentage of the population as opposed to the larger number that people seem to think of. This is not to belittle the seriousness of the situation here at all but rather, try and put it in perspective to what you think you know or believe...
RussSchultz said:
o.d. said:
The rep the US is getting is most definitely unfairly given. The hatred of the United States is mainly perpetuated by left wing nut bars and Islamic millitants that seem to permeate European society and Islamic cultures in general. Because Americans do not prescribe to the Islamic code and they live in the worlds premiere super power militants that seem to be pervasive in Islamic cultures plan to kill Americans. There most certainly is a distain for American society and culture from within Islam. This bullshit that it is all about the US government is only a partial truth. There is also a connection between to unlikely allies in this ongoing anti American diatribe in the mid east and Europe.
Islamic Fundamentalist and Socialist actually share common ideas founded in collectivist ideas. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" seems to be the logic. But you will see great disparities between these too groups in the future. Ironically it is not the US and what ever it can sell you that is much of a threat to your culture but the advancement of egalitarian ideals spewing from Europe and left wing socialist. It is funny you sit here and hypocritically attack the US on their policies when if the US were too suddenly take on the sorts of laws and its culture preach hatred in their schools as in Saudi Arabia, imagine the outrage. Arab culture is down the tubes by that I mean that it is so far behind the rest of the entire world in evolutionary terms that Arab Islamic culture in its current form is doomed, unless of course you manage to reverse the course of evolution for the rest of the world so that it is more accommodating to Islam. It is militant Islam and these people with their irrational hatred of America in your culture that is leading the charge down the tube.
Arabic nations and people need to change and adapt to the modern world and realities. That most certainly would include right at the top of the list Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is more deserving of international critique. The hypocritical left in Europe constantly points at the US as the greatest problem the modern world faces and they turn a blind eye to your culture and countries because they know a successful capitalistic US is more of a threat to their ideology then some unscientific religion that can easily be shown for its illogic just like they did with the Christian religion Islam will be torn at but only after or while capitalism and America is converted to a socialist egalitarian model. You can see in France already though they are attacking your culture by disallowing traditional clothes. Everyone in the west already knows the US is far more tolerant then your society as well just try too see how easy it is too open a mosque in Detroit as opposed to a church in Saudi Arabia. I am not sure if it is Islam itself or simply the direction Islamic fascists are pulling the religion. That is too say that support for militant Islam and hatred of all things American seems to be so prevalent within Islamic societies that it is difficult to discern the difference. Even your news coverage in Islamic countries is slanted towards the cultivation of hatred of America. Aljazeera et al make Fox News look like a bunch of goodie two shoes when it comes to promoting bias.
Should Americans begin to think of this war as a war on the ideology of Islam as a result of this supposed militant Islamic fringe group with it will mark the end of expansionary Islam. The left will on one face attack the current republican leadership in the US while on the other smile broadly knowing full well the US is doing their dirty work. Without the growing threat of terrorism and 9/11 the Arab world would have continued unabated and it is only the culture of hate that has spurred the invasion by the "infidels". It is becoming more and more difficult for your opportunistic allies in Europe to continue their anti American stance and soon there will be even more support for US actions in the mid east. It is your systems, peoples and governments that are deserving of a more critical eye, not America. That is my perspective.
Well, for one you could start by correctly punctuating your ranting conspiracy theories with commas and periods, so as to make them more legible. Edit: There were quite a few instances where I couldn't make out any point you were trying to reach other than "US: Good. ME and Europe: bad".(Edit: Deleted. Perhaps I was a bit harsh here.)
Another step would be to actually read some political and/or economic theory, (of both the right and the left), before trying to develop and lump everyone into your own convoluted, boring, and highly innaccurate socio-political "models". The world is far more interesting and complicated than simply:
Left=Collectivist=Authoritarian
Right=Individualist=Freedom
European=Socialist=Left
American=Capitalist=Right
Arab=Anti-West=Islamo-Fascist
Then you could take into account that perhaps the reason why Americans face the greatest amount of criticism for their actions is that they wield the most influence, and that the bad things we do have much further-reaching repercussions than the bad things most 3rd world dictators do.
There's more, but I figure that's a pretty good start, (and in fact I doubt you'll even go so far as to fulfill these preliminary requests). Good day to you.
Another step would be to actually read some political and/or economic theory, (of both the right and the left), before trying to develop and lump everyone into your own convoluted, boring, and highly innaccurate socio-political "models". The world is far more interesting and complicated than simply:
Left=Collectivist=Authoritarian
Right=Individualist=Freedom
European=Socialist=Left
American=Capitalist=Right
Arab=Anti-West=Islamo-Fascist
Then you could take into account that perhaps the reason why Americans face the greatest amount of criticism for their actions is that they wield the most influence, and that the bad things we do have much further-reaching repercussions than the bad things most 3rd world dictators do.
There's more, but I figure that's a pretty good start, (and in fact I doubt you'll even go so far as to fulfill these preliminary requests). Good day to you.
Clashman said:
Socialism is authoritarian egalitarianism. Collectivist philosophies envelope a wide range of idealism but the Islamic fundamentalist are socialistic/collectivist just a different variety of collectivist mentality thus sharing similarities in philosophy but these similarities end there. The model I address is not as segmented as you presented above at all. America is the foremost superpower I already acknowledged that and it is left wing socialist that have stake in seeing capitalism and the republican party being voted out in favor of some palatable variety of welfare state democrat. I will wait for the rest as your initial knee-jerk reaction was fairly uncomplicated to address.