Saddam Arrested

[Sabastian]

So as much as you admire the US sabastian you would do away with all men are created equal I suppose... Socialist states unlike social democracies which are branded as such here are indeed corporations. Communism was a corporate structure. The problem with corporations is that they sheild those who would do wrong in and with them.

It has nothing to do with not liking big business. We need large structures private and public as some things cant be realized without them. But we need transparency afforded by democracy to avoid really terible things whether gross worker abuses or environmental damage both of which are common in palces with little or no government intervention. The old argument creeps up again: create a power vacuum and it will be filled by someone or something else and it wont necessarily be to the advantage of most or even many of us...

All men are created equal... in the eyes of God? But not one another and you don't have to go to far into the real world to realize that. I think rather my problem is with having equal outcomes.

Heh, years ago I thought of the same correlation in that corporations are like mini collectives. The real difference is that the corporations and the individuals employed are entirely different in their motivational goals. Also I take corporations that are subject to law and market forces based on supply and demand with considerably less apprehension then a government that is ultimately more powerful by rule of law. I am not against democracy only against what it might become. Some state "structures" are not needed to be realized at all and many simply become bureaucratic pork-barreling.

 

[pax]

Youd have to be clear about what state structures you find onerous. After 20 years of cuts in canada I dont see when we get mad cow and poisoned water where we should reduce gov oversight.

 

[Sabastian]

Youd have to be clear about what state structures you find onerous. After 20 years of cuts in canada I dont see when we get mad cow and poisoned water where we should reduce gov oversight.

The federal gun registry comes to mind immediately. I don't believe creating massive environmental bureaucracies would help much in the policing of that at all. Just create a larger strain on government coffers forcing a need for larger revenues and we all know how they do that. Current standards are sufficient IMO.

Pax no offence, but I got to get some sleep.

 

[ByteMe]

All men are created equal... in the eyes of God? But not one another and you don't have to go to far into the real world to realize that. I think rather my problem is with having equal outcomes.

I guess that depends on whom you ask.

 

[pax]

I agree on the gun registry. But its a drop in the bucket. I do think people should pay for having regular screenings if they wish to own firerarms tho. You should be able to buy what you want but be able to pass basic criminal and psychological assessements. I wouldnt want other tax payers to pay for ones privilege.

Environmental laws are largely fine as they stand in canada its quite the issue of enforcement.

As for equal outcomes its pretty obvious we dont have a system that does that here in any sense of the term. If you dont work you will be dead poor. So I dont think its a concern. What safety net there is is bare minimum.

But do get some sleep and answer at your leisure... I certainly do myself .

 

[Sabastian]

I agree on the gun registry. But its a drop in the bucket. I do think people should pay for having regular screenings if they wish to own firerarms tho. You should be able to buy what you want but be able to pass basic criminal and psychological assessements. I wouldnt want other tax payers to pay for ones privilege.

Environmental laws are largely fine as they stand in canada its quite the issue of enforcement.

As for equal outcomes its pretty obvious we dont have a system that does that here in any sense of the term. If you dont work you will be dead poor. So I dont think its a concern. What safety net there is is bare minimum.

But do get some sleep and answer at your leisure... I certainly do myself .

The Gun registry, The Indian Act, official bilingualism, ending CBC and other media subsidizations too name a few off the top of my head.(Any subsidized project ought to be brought under severe critique.) existing bureaucracies continue to appeal to the government for more and more money to ensure their survival. Spending freezes are viewed as cuts within these departments you realize. There are all sorts of wasteful government programs that could be outright reduced or cut out all together. There should always be efforts from within government to do more with less taxpayers money rather then the constant drive to find new ways to spend it. A government ought to look for ways to reduce the ways it digs into the electorates pockets and reduce spending. Canada needs to reduce taxes and spending in general. Ever since PET was in office the country has been spending money hand over fist, it is time his bureaucracy was finally cut. It was his initial creation of these bureaucracies and spending increases that have been passed through till today. My argument that the political will to reduce these structures is greatly reduced because of the massive percentage of the electorate employed by them is bolstered by the Canadian experience. I am willing to bet I can apply that template to any government that exists in a democracy and employs electorate via bureaucracies.

As for the point that indeed if we don't work we will be dirt poor.. no question about that. It was only a couple of years ago though our elected PM was throwing around the silly suggestion of guaranteed incomes. The logic of bigger government is expansionary. Thankfully there is some reasonable portion of the liberal party still kicking around that believes in accountable government in terms of spending and taxation. Hopefully Martin will finally get rid of our debt incurred originally by Trudeau, a left wing socialist, and move Canada away from sliding further and further into a collectivist model. Right now the slide is only in check reversing it will take a great deal of political will of which I am not so sure Martin is willing to do, the conservatives might though. The debt must be reduced substaintially else that debt be passed on to future generations unfairly. Deficit reduction is not enough debt reduction needs to begin once that begins the government can stop throwing billions out the window on interest. Debt reduction is far more important then deficit reduction.

EDIT: I think maybe the topic is a bit too far off topic but if you wish to continue by all means be my guest.

 

[pax]

The indian act? You're on crack unless you would have us respect all land claims as per treaties we broke and lose more than half the country to a fraction of the population? I suppose oka wasnt enough we should have a couple hundred of those disturbances? Not that youd save much $ here... Christ no 200 okas would cost us a fucking fortune...

Official Bilinguilism would only rekindle quebec seperation which is abating. Not that it has much to do with removing access to equal outcomes nor too would it save much $. It would probly cost more to move back to unilingualism...

We spend less in federal bureaucracies than we did in the 50's. At least Paul Martin made that claim recently on CBC. How many more food inspectors and other essential oversight should we cut into?

Subsidies to biz should be cut. But again not relevant to your socialistic fears. In fact to the contrary.

The minimum income idea was one to streamline existing programs and bureaucracies. It would have one program covering what are now done by everything from welfare to cpp to UI ect... And again was bare bones income support for people who couldnt work and likely even more bare for those who wouldnt like it is in welfare right now. Our premier is a neo con and not a socialist... last I hear heard he was a member of the conservative party.

DEBT accrodign to gdp has dropped considerably in the last 10 years form 70% of gdp to 44% this year. Its dropping to 25% in the next 10. And tho I agree we shouldnt give 50 million to Irving to close its naval shipyards and spend that on health care instead there isnt much in gov you can cut without serious loss of oversight. Look at the so called billion dollar boondoggle what was that? It was loss of oversight from excess staffing cuts. And even tho only 300 000 was ulttimately not accounted for it took hiring of new staff to make sure the rest of the money went where it was supposed to in community supports for the handicap and such.

Trudeau a left wing socialist? By rhetoric maybe on a handful of issues but in life? He inherited from his families large business of gas retailing. He opposed medicare like the other liberals of his time who only adopted it as the NDP was about to win the election.

The debt was incurred not by Trudean but largely by Mulroney. And virtually all by his bad management of the bank of canada where skyrocketing % rates accounted for 44% of the debt alone. When everywhere else the rates were much lower by the mid to late 80's. Thank to John Crowe and his insane 0% inflation theory he experimented with the country's economy he non only pilled on interest payments but damaged the economy for nearly 10 years keeping it from growing...

So we have 2 things debt load of gdp rapidly dropping and actual debt is dropping in dollar terms. Very low (too low) business taxes. Effective 3% federal and 1% provincial. Health care most New Brunswickers couldnt possibly afford if it was privatised... where else can we cut ?

But we do have high middle class taxes... talked to my cousin dentist who made 530 000$ last year. He wined about the 70 000 in taxes he had to pay last year... yea like the issue is the taxes he pays and not the insane premiums and cost of care we can barely afford for dental now.

Canada has no collectivist model at any level so I dont know where you are getting that. We have bare income supports which mostly help single moms and the ill and handicapped. Most of the program cuts you support arent realistic. Most of the cuts that could be made have already been made. Gov hasnt expanded next to the economy in a long time now.

And I wouldnt trade a few hundred bucks in tax relief for thousands in private health care premiums. Not that Im worried about that. The biz community in the country will never allow health care to significantly be privatised... It would severely affect their bottom line.

There are no radical changes to be brought to gov other than some measure of tax reform to return some modest amount of the burden back to the high end from the middle. And not much in cuts outside of biz subsidies. We've already seen what excessive cuts to the bureaucracy can do.

As for the debt keep % rates low. The fed hasnt borrowed new money in almost 10 years. No need to jack them up and gut the economy and the ability of the gov to manage to debt which is long term in any case... A debt that was largely born out of the 60's and 70's cuts to business taxes. And not actual gov spending vs the size of the overall economy. In fact at one pniot ni the last 90's gov was spending less per capita than in 1949 a low poin in the 20th cent.... the idea of the size of gov next ot the size of the economy being out of control is largely a myth... The only time that heppne was when the gov absorbed the health care system back the 60's and 70's. Which was one of the best things we ever did. Whether for guaranteed access for the population to doctors not having to be paid in barter (my uncle in the 50's would not be paid by about a third of his patients or be paid in potatoes and wood hed have to resell... not to mention constantly being in a legal process to recover fees for services rendered...) or for the advantages it brought business investing in the country.

 

[Sabastian]

Pax I have to get ready for a 12 hour shift.. but briefly. I think that the Indian Act is outdated and ought to be thrown out in its entirety. I don't agree with native first class citizenry at all with rights above and beyond the rest of the country. I don't give a dam if the idea is too radical.

Official bilingualism is a waste. Putting signs up in BC that include a French translation is a waste of taxpayers cash. Maybe you could get the French to get rid of their Nazi language police?

We spend less in federal bureaucracies than we did in the 50's. At least Paul Martin made that claim recently on CBC. How many more food inspectors and other essential oversight should we cut into?

That sounds like bullshit to me.

Subsidies to biz should be cut. But again not relevant to your socialistic fears. In fact to the contrary.

How so?

The minimum income idea was one to streamline existing programs and bureaucracies. It would have one program covering what are now done by everything from welfare to cpp to UI ect... And again was bare bones income support for people who couldnt work and likely even more bare for those who wouldnt like it is in welfare right now. Our premier is a neo con and not a socialist... last I hear heard he was a member of the conservative party.

Hmm, I think you are getting confused or something. The Prime Minister that recently left office in Ottawa proposed a guaranteed income scheme it was only the stanch opposition to the idea that it was not pursued.

The Net debt has been reduced somewhat but not enough but overall increased dramatically over the last 10 years under the federal liberals.

http://www.taxpayer.com/Facts/Federal/Federal_debt_by_year_1956-57_to_2000-01.htm

Trudeau a left wing socialist? By rhetoric maybe on a handful of issues but in life? He inherited from his families large business of gas retailing. He opposed medicare like the other liberals of his time who only adopted it as the NDP was about to win the election.

The debt was incurred not by Trudean but largely by Mulroney. And virtually all by his bad management of the bank of canada where skyrocketing % rates accounted for 44% of the debt alone. When everywhere else the rates were much lower by the mid to late 80's. Thank to John Crowe and his insane 0% inflation theory he experimented with the country's economy he non only pilled on interest payments but damaged the economy for nearly 10 years keeping it from growing...

This is inaccurate. Trudeau created the federal bureaucracies. The Mulroney government inherited them and didn't have the guts to cut the spending incurred by Trudeau. The bureaucracies simply have grown just like they are still doing just like Canada's net debt has. The debt is a serious problem and expense. Mulroney being one of them "red conservatives" created the GST and did nothing to curb the spending at all. The one good thing that his government did though was sign NAFTA. Canada's economy did fairly well in the mid to late 90's. I do think that inflation would have prolonged any sort of economic recovery we had.

So we have 2 things debt load of gdp rapidly dropping and actual debt is dropping in dollar terms. Very low (too low) business taxes. Effective 3% federal and 1% provincial. Health care most New Brunswickers couldnt possibly afford if it was privatised... where else can we cut ?

The greatest reason presently why our debt load would be dropping presently is mainly because of a higher dollar. But that is a double edged blade putting more pricing pressure on exports. Thankfully we can sell across the boarder to our friends in the US with relatively little to worry about in terms of tariffs (thanks to NAFTA.) their economy seems to be rapidly improving under the Bush administration.(Thanks to his tax cuts.) I am not really addressing provincial politics here Pax, but I would suggest that there is indeed money to be saved on the provincial side of things as well, just not as much as the federal.

But we do have high middle class taxes... talked to my cousin dentist who made 530 000$ last year. He wined about the 70 000 in taxes he had to pay last year... yea like the issue is the taxes he pays and not the insane premiums and cost of care we can barely afford for dental now.

70 000 in income taxes, then another 18% worth of sales tax, gas tax, property tax, SIN tax on and on. Lol, I think he paid more then his share towards your health care provider paycheck.

Canada has no collectivist model at any level so I dont know where you are getting that. We have bare income supports which mostly help single moms and the ill and handicapped. Most of the program cuts you support arent realistic. Most of the cuts that could be made have already been made. Gov hasnt expanded next to the economy in a long time now.

I am saying that it could slide into it even more so then it is. I would agree though we are "behind" in redistributionism compared to what is going on in Europe and for that I am thankful. But too say that socialized health care is not a collectivist ideal is absurd. Never mind all of the other universal welfare type programs.

The only time that heppne was when the gov absorbed the health care system back the 60's and 70's.

Pax, the net debt increased in the 60's and 70's, it was late in Trudeau's rein when he became more and more of a big spender when Canada had the increase in debt. Particularly from 1977 – 1984 long after health care was in place.

http://www.taxpayer.com/Facts/Federal/Federal_debt_by_year_1956-57_to_2000-01.htm

Bureaucracies grow whether they need to or not.

 

[pax]

Well the big issue sab is that you dont indicate which bureaucracy needs to be trimmed and more importantly how much would be saved if such happened. What you did mention is both impractical and or has been in place a very long time before debts were incurred.


As for socialized health care I doubt you could afford private. Much less the vast majority of canadians. So if its redistribution damn, then Im all for it. In fact its obvious that to remove the role of social engineering by gov in society would be a grand and terrible experiment with dislocations we can barely fathom.

You dont deal with those issues either...

No one likes debts but how you can blame social programs that avoided more costly private versions or the social issues that are present in those countries without such programs is not really feasible. Look at the tax load of biz and upperclasses and in effects you see them being much higher in the 60 's and earlier with middle class taxes much lower than today even when taking into account medicare.

Your link shows pretty clearly the deficit ballooning under Mulroney. Which was mostly due to abnormaly high interest engineered by Crowe. You also have to account that the economy is growing and shrinking the overall debt even if it only stabilizes in those years that it has.


I have even yet to read any hard numbers of what the alliance would do if they gained power in their own debt paranoia... I dont thin k the panic mode makes any sense anymore... it did to a point in the ealry 90' under the conservatives missmanagment tho the assets Canada has more than guarantees the very high rating for the bonds that have been issued so far.

And since the overall debt to gdp has drsatcilly been cut I dont see the need for anymore social experiments. So the kids will have to pay for th next generation? What else is new. Since when should we be the first gen not to take care of our elders. They took care of us by winning the world wars which incurred large debts and we will will take care of them by paying for health care and paying down the debts from the past missmanagement and biz subsidies which I agree are the areas which have been and should be reformed and cut.

Pretty easy to say its social programs that are the prob. Show me in gdp terms the increases per capita and other than absorbtion of the health care system into the public sector which saved taxpayers untold billions youll notice the spending has been very stable and modest even tho the population has greatly aged.