RV560/570 Gemini roadmap

Entropy said:
True. However, the top-of-the-line card may be severely constrained by its memory system in some cases. If so, giving a middle range card a higher bandwidth to processing power ratio than the top offering might be useful.

And what exactly guarantees that 2*64 bit vs. 4*64 bit doesn't have better granularity overall? (***edit: replace with any other possible split values, the sense of the question remains the same).

It is interesting to compare the x1600xt with the x1900xt. The x1600xt can be described as one fourth of the x1900xt, yet, in many applications, it performs at a level that almost perfectly matches its bandwidth ratio to its higher end brethren, rather than its ALU processing capabilities, implying that in many real life applications the x1900xt is bandwidth constrained rather than constrained by its internal processing capabilities (or constrained by some other factor that happens to match the bandwidth differences).

RV530 might be based on the R580 characteristics but in my mind it was designed as a mainstream part to the R520. The "real" mainstream GPU I would compare to X1900 will be RV560 and there you roughly have 1/2 * R580. In my mind for today's games the RV530 is too fill-rate constricted and by the time multitexturing fillrates will matter way less, it will be most likely dated. I'm not implying that RV530 isn't an excellent design one bit; it's just that the concept behind it is a tad ahead of it's time.

What I'm trying to say here is quite simple: each IHV targets within a product line X amount of performance for a high end GPU and normally X/2 performance (more or less) for the mainstream part of that line.

Bringing us back to the subject of this thread, for a hypothetical RV5X0 GPU that has twice the processing capabilities of the RV530, this would imply that it would stand to benefit quite substantionally from having a correspondingly faster memory subsystem, rather than adopting the ratio of the x1900xt.

The x1600xt vs x1900xt performance characteristics is the best data point I can see in the market at this point, particularly when cross referenced with x1800xt to x1900xt data.

Depends if they're targetting half the X1900 performance or more. I'm generally against concentrating on specific factors on each GPU, one has to view each GPU as an entire design.

The way I see it ATI is most likely targetting the G73 both in terms of performance as in final street price with the RV560 and I don't see why a 128-bit bus would stand in it's way for achieving that. In the meantime the X1800/X1900GTOs will in a relative sense aim to fill that gap. For which theoretical ALU throughput ignored, the X1800GTO doesn't seem to slaughter the G73 exactly either, despite it having 43% more raw bandwidth and 34% more Pixel fillrate.
 
Ailuros said:
Depends if they're targetting half the X1900 performance or more. I'm generally against concentrating on specific factors on each GPU, one has to view each GPU as an entire design.

Sorry for my tardiness in replying, busy days since I'll be off traveling over the weekend.

Basically, I'm making one claim: that performance data from ATIs current offerings imply that an RV570 with, for arguments sake, twice the processing capability of the RV530, would need to be fed by a substantially stronger memory subsystem to yeild much in the way of improved performance in the vast majority of games.

The question I wanted to get a handle on was: is moving to a 256-bit memory path a technically feasible option, if the card is supposed to sell for roughly $200? As far as I could see, the answer would be a very cautious "yes".

GDDR4 could offer an alternative route, but depending on when hypothetical RV570 products would launch, there might be supply issues. 256-bit would be a safer option, and might not actually cost more as long as GDDR4 can command a supply related price premium.

Now, whether ATI will actually provide the RV570 with a heftier memory system than the RV530 has to do with market forces as well, obviously. ATI might want to cut costs to the bone, but on the other hand they need a strong offering in the mid-range to get good volume, and if they do sell in decent volumes, they also want decent margins. Price dumping high-end designs isn't a terribly attractive option if you actually sell large numbers.

We'll see which way the chips fall.

PS. The X1900XT is interesting in another way. Having the top-of-the-charts product is undeniably given a hugely disproportionate amount of attention in on and offline media. Therefore, those products have been, and are, justified from a marketing perspective, regardless of technical merit or straight economical ROI. The X1900XT has been at the top of the charts, and will stay there for a while more. I'm quite curious about whether having the top dog offering will actually translate to significantly better sales in other segments for ATI as per theory.
 
Entropy said:
Basically, I'm making one claim: that performance data from ATIs current offerings imply that an RV570 with, for arguments sake, twice the processing capability of the RV530, would need to be fed by a substantially stronger memory subsystem to yeild much in the way of improved performance in the vast majority of games.

The X1600XT has 22.1 GB/s bandwidth for merely 2.36 GTexels/s fillrate. If I'd apply theoretically that bandwidth to fillrate analogy to a say G71@650MHz then it should have 146+GB/s bandwidth. I know it's a weird example and a wild exaggeration, but I frankly cannot see why two quads instead of one quad on the RV5x0 basis would need that much bandwidth after all.

As I said those things are relative to what performance an IHV is targetting for the mainstream and yes considering cost also and of course in relation to the high end GPUs. Besides ALU throughput per se is not bandwidth dependent, other internal architectural factors may be, but I doubt it's to a point where it would pose a bottleneck.

Assuming (and yes that's just speculation) RV560 has 8 TMUs@600MHz that would equal 4.8 GTexels/s fillrate and I don't see why even 800MHz GDDR3 (ie 25.6 GB/s) wouldn't be sufficient there. The G73 has 3 quads/6.7 GTexels with 22.4 GB/s bandwidth, what exactly am I missing here?

The question I wanted to get a handle on was: is moving to a 256-bit memory path a technically feasible option, if the card is supposed to sell for roughly $200? As far as I could see, the answer would be a very cautious "yes".

Well if you're thinking something like 400MHz/256bit vs. 800MHz/128bit it might be the case albeit I'd still figure the first to be more expensive overall. If you're thinking 700MHz@256bit on the other hand (and yes these are just random numbers for the example's sake), then I still can't understand what you'd need almost 45GB/s for.

GDDR4 could offer an alternative route, but depending on when hypothetical RV570 products would launch, there might be supply issues. 256-bit would be a safer option, and might not actually cost more as long as GDDR4 can command a supply related price premium.

There's GDDR3 at 1.1ns/900MHz available right now. Here GDDR4 would make sense past 1GHz, which I expect frankly to see on high end GPUs first.

May I remind you of the better granularity under some conditions on mainstream 128bit parts and their memory controllers?
 
1. I am not basing my argument on theoretical usage assumptions, but on observed data. Which has the advantage of being real-life, and the disadvantage of being subject to interpretation. :) What I'm claiming is that we can see that RV530 to R580 performance scales with bandwidth and not processing power, for most applications. Whether this has to do with inherent limitations difficult to assess from the outside (such as actual bus efficiency vs. theoretical bandwidth) or that usage patterns do not match your assumptions, I just don't know, and make no claims.

2. High grade GDDR3 is expensive. GDDR4 of any kind is likely to be expensive due to limited supply. 256-bit memory buses are expensive. The trick is to answer how expensive, in order to make intelligent predictions as to what paths the IHVs might take. The damn thing is - we don't know sufficiently well, so any argument on these boards that is based on cost alone is always going to be suspect.
 
A question

Wouldnt it be possible to use a double clocked half width bus to a multiplexer to enable small padded chips to have 256 bit busses? It would have larger latency than a normal 256 bit bus but lantency isnt that important for a gpu anyway. GPU power has grown faster than memory bandwidth, hasnt it?
 
Entropy,

I think we can both agree that there can never be enough bandwidth really on any GPU out there; that said I don't see anything striking about either RV530/R520 or R580 that suggest unbalanced architectures when it comes to bandwidth analogies. For what they were aimed for they seem to do more than well.

I could easily say that the GTX256 is bandwidth constricted too; there real time tests show me an average of 12-15% increase with 490/685MHz (roughly +14% for core/memory). Roughly 10% average if I increase only the core to 490 and leave memory at 600MHz and ~5% if I leave the core at 430MHz and increase the ram to 685MHz.
Just one part of that "homework" was here:

http://www.3declipse.com//content/view/15/9/

If I'd take a RV530 and throw it through similar experiments under what conditions would you think it would scale most? Why do I have the feeling that I would see a quite similar trend here too?
 
geo said:
Inq signing up now for difference in quads between RV560 and RV570, 2 vs 3: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=30687

If it weren't for the different names, it would seem obvious to me that one was a quad-disabled version of the other. . . Very odd.
My theory is that in ATI's 3:1 GPUs, there is no "quad-disabling", which is why they have different names.

Redundancy is within the shader units, not across them.

Jawed
 
Jawed said:
My theory is that in ATI's 3:1 GPUs, there is no "quad-disabling", which is why they have different names.

Redundancy is within the shader units, not across them.

Jawed


you have to disable ALU Arrays through the Dispatch processor , is that correct ???
 
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geo said:
Inq signing up now for difference in quads between RV560 and RV570, 2 vs 3: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=30687

If it weren't for the different names, it would seem obvious to me that one was a quad-disabled version of the other. . . Very odd.
ATI has never made a 3 quad chip in the past, and they don't seem to need one now either. 8-1-3-2 with 256 bit external bus should fill out their lineup nicely.

But what really creates doubt in my mind, is that RV560 is reported to have only 4 VS. The single quad RV530 already has 5. It doesn't make any sense.

The TSMC vs UMC explanation still seems more credible.
 
Asus "Gemini" board:

img023720copy5vs.jpg


From OCW
 
Those are some damn serious looking d-sub connector cables! What's up with that?
 
Alstrong said:
If 'twere up to me, I'd disconnect those immediately. :eek:

And replace them with more DVI connectors!!!!!!!!

Seriously, why the heck is their a need for those to d-sub connections? With just changing them to DVI you could support 4 LCD screens at their best quality, and if you need them for a CRT you could just slap on a few adapters.
 
L'Inq suggesting RV570 release in September. Wouldn't have thought it would fill the X1950XT placeholder though (R580+ surely? Edit: shouldn't that be R590? - I must be reading L'Inq too much:p ), but rather the previously mentioned X1900GTO or similar.
 
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On the one hand, saying it is going to be called X1950XT does not give me much confidence in their sources.

On the other, the timing seems reasonable.
 
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