Revolution = "paradigm shift"

[Evil_Cloud]

THe problem I see is the double standard when it comes to nintendo .

When nintendo does something its kiddy or they are riding on a few charactors , when sony does it its great or ground breaking .

Even if all sony did was copy what nintendo did years ago .

See, this is a common mantra I hear from people who dislike Sony. The fact is, Nintendo IS kiddy and Nintendo IS riding on a few characters. These are Nintendo's problems, and they're their own fault.

Clearly, Sony is doing a LOT more than just copying what Nintendo did years ago. If that's all Sony was doing, they wouldn't have dominated two consecutive generations and sold a cool 80+million with PS2 so far.

If most Nintendo franchises appeal to or are targeted on all ages, does that make it kiddy?

No, clearly not, if it were kiddy it would be aimed specifically at children, which is not the case. Nintendo games are accessible and deep at the same time, but it's not like they're (too) simplistic so older people wouldn't be able to enjoy them.

It's not because it doesn't include blood, gore, violence,... it's kiddy all of a sudden. Childish or kiddy is really a whole different world from 'all ages'.

Pikmin for example can be played by 5 year olds, but to understand the precise gameplay mechanics and goals, they're too young.

Nintendo has a very typical franchise family. You're not expected to like everyone, but you would have to wear eyepatches if you wouldn't like at least a few.

 

[jvd]

To be fair Nintendo does like to herald it's own stuff as ground breaking.

And some of it is , Look at the power pad , when released it was ground breaking and many laughed but now the dance pad which is just a rip off of the power pad is a huge sucess

The anlog thumb pad was also ground breaking and now all controllers come with it .

the 4 ports built into the console was ground breaking and now 2 of the 3 systems out have it built in .

See, this is a common mantra I hear from people who dislike Sony. The fact is, Nintendo IS kiddy and Nintendo IS riding on a few characters. These are Nintendo's problems, and they're their own fault.

Nintendo isn't kiddy though.

Nintendo is like shrek 1 + 2 . They make games that appeal to all age groups at once .

Mario may not shoot bowser full of bullets and then go bang princess in the back of a stolen car . But that doesn't mean that adults don't like playing mario games because they are engaging and fun to play and don't need controvesy or childish displays of gore to intice the players .

Sony also only has a few titles .

If this wasn't the case we wouldn't be on grand turismo 4 , we wouldn't be waiting on a new metal gear solid , a new crash game , a new jak game .

The only diffrence between sony and nintendo is that nintendo owns all its own charactors and at no time can they be bought away .

At any time ms or nintendo can pay konami millions to insure that metal gear is taken away from sony systems , or that final fantsy becomes an ms exlusive .

Sony is riding the same few tittles that people put nintendo down for . That is a double standard .

Couldn't you say sticking with carts was NOT a risk? After all, you're sticking with what you used before - something that worked.

Your also limiting your storage size . Sega proved that a cd based system would work with the sega cd , then with the saturn and the psx it was shown that not only could it work but it would much more room for storage than a cart.
Then of course the price diffrences

They certainly didn't take a risk going with Sony when they had the chance. And look what happened...the PS1.

No but then again with the cd add on for the super nes it would have come out after the sega cd , which really showed it wasn't a risk but a waste of money .

 

[Ty]

JVD,

Then it doesn't sound like a risk so much as sheer stupidity. And using the Sega CD as an example of CD's viability is a bit strange since that system wasn't viable.

 

[Squeak]

And some of it is , Look at the power pad , when released it was ground breaking and many laughed but now the dance pad which is just a rip off of the power pad is a huge sucess

The anlog thumb pad was also ground breaking and now all controllers come with it .

the 4 ports built into the console was ground breaking and now 2 of the 3 systems out have it built in .

Atari pionered all of those technologies you mentioned (Amiga "guru meditation" joyboard controller for the 2600, Atari 800/400 had 4x joyports and Atari 5200 came with analog pads/joysticks).

I completely agree with you on the Mario thing though, as long as I don't feel talked down to, I will play/watch/listen to almost anything with an open mind.

 

[see colon]

Sony copied the super nes controller and added fins to it

i like to think sony coppied the nes max design but added the features of the snes controller

sony was really original with the "dual shock" part of the dual shock as well...
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=6273

Couldn't you say sticking with carts was NOT a risk? After all, you're sticking with what you used before - something that worked.

it's not like other cd based systems weren't available before the n64 was revealed to be cart only. in fact, judging by the arcade killer instinct (announced to be coming for the "ultra64" before it was even in arcades) it's pretty easy to infer that they were planning on some sort of mass storage. i think sticking with carts was a pretty big risk and it hurt them more than they expected. but nintendo knew it was a risk, they started marketing the cartrage advantage(r) as soon as the fact was revealed, maybe even sooner. i remember in a nintendo power they compared a cd to a turtle and a carts to a rocket ship, with charts and pictures to demonstrate the differance.
nintendo knew the direction the industry was moving in. every console released since the snes* used cd's, and some that were released before it had it as an optional add-on. they took a risk by going against the grain, and it proved fatal to their reputation.


*with the exception of the neogeo, and the neoCD (same hardware with a different media) came out later to compensate.

 

[Evil_Cloud]

it's not like other cd based systems weren't available before the n64 was revealed to be cart only. in fact, judging by the arcade killer instinct (announced to be coming for the "ultra64" before it was even in arcades) it's pretty easy to infer that they were planning on some sort of mass storage. i think sticking with carts was a pretty big risk and it hurt them more than they expected. but nintendo knew it was a risk, they started marketing the cartrage advantage(r) as soon as the fact was revealed, maybe even sooner. i remember in a nintendo power they compared a cd to a turtle and a carts to a rocket ship, with charts and pictures to demonstrate the differance.

They anticipated this risk and problem by announcing the bulky drive - Nintendo 64 Disc Drive, this failed because of a few reasons.

Initially there was about 8MB of storage, but in the end the storage problem was partially solved by larger carts, making the DD a bit obsolete.

Other reasons include: system cost, online viability,...

 

[jvd]

JVD,

Then it doesn't sound like a risk so much as sheer stupidity. And using the Sega CD as an example of CD's viability is a bit strange since that system wasn't viable.

Depends on how u look at it .

The sega cd was certianly a success (so was turbo graphics cd rom drive) in showing that the tech was there and was worth it to persue .

It however showed that releasing this as an add on was sheer stupidity . Which nintendo was able to stear away .

sony was really original with the "dual shock" part of the dual shock as well...

except the shock as the n64 controlers had the shock built in or through packs and so did the dreamcast .

 

[see colon]

except the shock as the n64 controlers had the shock built in or through packs and so did the dreamcast .

huh? i'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. nintendo's runble pack was different technology from sony's (well, acording to rumors i heard, it was quite similar, nintendo threatened to sue sony, who changed the design into the current dual shock, and they eventualy got sued by immersion for that). i'm not really sure why nintendo never went after sega for the dreamcast "shock pack" or whatever it was called. the technology felt pretty similar, and the "controller memory card/rumble slot" interface was similar enough for them to trick a non-technical judge into ruling with them.

 

[cthellis42]

It's not even like it's obviously one console party or another to bring tech to the field. After all it's Immersion Corp that has successfully gone after Sony and Microsoft with their patents, and Nintendo who licensed from them for the Cube. The methods used and players involved aren't all that obvious either from one machine or one generation to another.

 

[Kolgar]

Evil Cloud

If most Nintendo franchises appeal to or are targeted on all ages, does that make it kiddy?

YES, yes it does. Like it or not, that's how people see it.

Appealing to "all ages" does not mean the same thing as "appealing to everybody."

Look at it this way: would you rather go to an "all-ages" bar or dance club? Or one for grown-ups?

As the old saying goes, there's no such thing as 'fun for the whole family.'

 

[hovz]

jvd how can u possibly compare sonys lineup to nintendos. sonys is so much more impressive it isnt even funny. sony has so many great original and quirky games that u will never find on a nintendo system. they have every single category covered with at LEAST a handful of great games. cant say the same for nintendo.

 

[Acert93]

THe problem I see is the double standard when it comes to nintendo .

When nintendo does something its kiddy or they are riding on a few charactors , when sony does it its great or ground breaking .

Even if all sony did was copy what nintendo did years ago .

See, this is a common mantra I hear from people who dislike Sony. The fact is, Nintendo IS kiddy and Nintendo IS riding on a few characters. These are Nintendo's problems, and they're their own fault.

Clearly, Sony is doing a LOT more than just copying what Nintendo did years ago. If that's all Sony was doing, they wouldn't have dominated two consecutive generations and sold a cool 80+million with PS2 so far.

If most Nintendo franchises appeal to or are targeted on all ages, does that make it kiddy?

No, clearly not, if it were kiddy it would be aimed specifically at children, which is not the case. Nintendo games are accessible and deep at the same time, but it's not like they're (too) simplistic so older people wouldn't be able to enjoy them.

It's not because it doesn't include blood, gore, violence,... it's kiddy all of a sudden. Childish or kiddy is really a whole different world from 'all ages'.

Pikmin for example can be played by 5 year olds, but to understand the precise gameplay mechanics and goals, they're too young.

Nintendo has a very typical franchise family. You're not expected to like everyone, but you would have to wear eyepatches if you wouldn't like at least a few.

I totally agree. This is where Nintendo is at a cross roads. Back in the day the stood against having blood in their versions of MK. I think their concern was that they were percieved, and obviously modeled their franchises, around the concept of entertainment for all ages. This is one of my main reasons I got a Cube. I like complex games, but I could do without the "mature" (read "vulgar") games. I don't want to cap honest policemen and then shack up with a prostitute to revitalize my health, and then kill her to get my money back. That is not entertainment to me. I can be quite happy with a Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Pikmin, or whatever as long as they require skill and thinking. I think Mario 64 is a good example of Nintendo's philosophy: The game appeals to all ages with the cartoony, bright characters. But the game itself is a LOT of fun for all ages.

Regardless of the skill required, the art direction of Nintendo franchises is just not "cool" to people in certain demographics (lets say 16-29) because of the lack of the blood, guts, sex, drugs, and so forth. Most visceral / testosterone driven teens don't want this type of stuff in games. And the fact is a 10 year old wants to play the same games his 16yo brother plays because, well, he is cool. So therefor Nintendo games become "uncool". Which is really too bad because the only "cartoony" aspect of these games is the characters--most Nintedo games actually play quite well.

I think part of the solution for Nintendo is to hit the first 2 years of Revolution with some "realistic" incarnation of some franchises. Metroid and Zelda with gritty, lifelike settings would go a far way to dispell the image that "Nintendo is just for kids" while demonstrating that a mature game does not need to have trampy women, tons of blood and gore, and other quesitonal elements.

Anyhow, good point Evil_Cloud that the "kiddy" label is not really fair. The gameplay in most Nintendo games is not child focused, but meant for fun for all ages. While this is an ok approach, there are many "uncool" elements to it and I think Nintendo needs to consider this market. If they can drag these gamers back to their console with a more realistic Zelda and Metroid I think it would do both Nintendo and 3rd parties well. Just my opinion of course.

 

[hovz]

thing is, ps2 has the cartoony games. it has them ALONGSIDE the mature games. theres rly no reason to buy a gamecube over a ps2. im glad the sales reflect that.

 

[Acert93]

thing is, ps2 has the cartoony games. it has them ALONGSIDE the mature games. theres rly no reason to buy a gamecube over a ps2. im glad the sales reflect that.

The sales data (and reviews) of many Nintendo games would disagree. But what are "facts" when you can troll

 

[see colon]

sony has so many great original and quirky games that u will never find on a nintendo system. they have every single category covered with at LEAST a handful of great games. cant say the same for nintendo.

and the same can't be said for microsoft, either. where are the good lightgun games on the xbox? there are 3 games that use the lightgun on xbox, HotD3, silent scope, and starsky and hutch. none are what i would call great. the GC of course has no lightgun games because they'll never allow a lightgun to be made for their system again.
the xbox has a serious deficit of "family" oriented games, good rpg's (they hinaly started getting some volume in rpg's but... i'll leave it at that).

anyway, before i go too far the point i'm trying to make is that sony has such a lead this generation it doesn't matter who's in 2nd or 3rd because nothing is going to do numbers like a ps2 game with a bit of marketiung behind it. neither the cube or the box get any titles that a publisher has to take any real chances on without being first party or with some serious greasing by the first party.

 

[hovz]

sony has so many great original and quirky games that u will never find on a nintendo system. they have every single category covered with at LEAST a handful of great games. cant say the same for nintendo.

and the same can't be said for microsoft, either. where are the good lightgun games on the xbox? there are 3 games that use the lightgun on xbox, HotD3, silent scope, and starsky and hutch. none are what i would call great. the GC of course has no lightgun games because they'll never allow a lightgun to be made for their system again.
the xbox has a serious deficit of "family" oriented games, good rpg's (they hinaly started getting some volume in rpg's but... i'll leave it at that).

anyway, before i go too far the point i'm trying to make is that sony has such a lead this generation it doesn't matter who's in 2nd or 3rd because nothing is going to do numbers like a ps2 game with a bit of marketiung behind it. neither the cube or the box get any titles that a publisher has to take any real chances on without being first party or with some serious greasing by the first party.

at least the xbox has them.

 

[hovz]

thing is, ps2 has the cartoony games. it has them ALONGSIDE the mature games. theres rly no reason to buy a gamecube over a ps2. im glad the sales reflect that.

The sales data (and reviews) of many Nintendo games would disagree. But what are "facts" when you can troll

yes, considering the biggest gamecube games are lucky to get anywhere even close to 1 million, i can see your point. metroid prime sold what, 400k in 2 months? and that was like their best game of the holiday season. halo sold what...... over 4 millions? thats more than every gamecube game released in the 4th quarter of 2004 combined. good point tho dude.

 

[Acert93]

thing is, ps2 has the cartoony games. it has them ALONGSIDE the mature games. theres rly no reason to buy a gamecube over a ps2. im glad the sales reflect that.

The sales data (and reviews) of many Nintendo games would disagree. But what are "facts" when you can troll

yes, considering the biggest gamecube games are lucky to get anywhere even close to 1 million, i can see your point. metroid prime sold what, 400k in 2 months? and that was like their best game of the holiday season. halo sold what...... over 4 millions? thats more than every gamecube game released in the 4th quarter of 2004 combined. good point tho dude.

Actually, Metroid Prime 2: Echoes sold closer to 500k copies in less than 2 months (7 weeks). And Halo 2 sold less than 4 million (about 3.6M) during the same period (although they are up to like 6.3M world wide as of CES I believe... but that may be shipped, not sold).

But that is neither here nor there.

As usual hovz you take on part of a discussion and twist it--you do not even try to hide your intentional Nintendo trolling :|

What I said was that the sales data for many Nintendo games and reviews of many Nintendo games disagreed with what you said about there being no point in owning a GCN. MANY GCN games are rated very well compared to their competition. This is one reason to own a GCN system. MANY of these games have sold very well. This shows that, unlike you, many people find the GCN and its games worth buying and owning. To a tune of about ~18M systems actually. The same amount of people who own Xbox systems. So the financial data and critical data do not agree with your statement that there is no reason to own a GCN.

Look, we know you hate Nintendo. Get over it. They have many great 1st party games, have opened up their franchises to 3rd parties like Sega, Namco, Capcom, Hudson, etc... and also have come in at a great price point for a couple years now. You may not like the GCN, but so far (1) as many people have found good reasons to buy the system as they have for the Xbox and (2) Nintendo is making a LOT of money on their console.

The fact Nintendo is making a lot of money is an indication that there is a reason to own their console. I honestly feel bad that you are so anti-Nintendo that you are missing out on games like LoZ: Wind Waker, RE4, Pikmin 1/2, Metroid Prime 1/2, Paper Mario, Viewtiful Joe 1/2, Eternal Darkness, SSB Melee, F-Zero, Animal Crossing, Super Monkey Ball 2 (my wife loves this game), Mario Power Tennis , and so forth. And if you liked Mario64, Super Mario Sunshin is even great. And with games like Star Wars Rogue Squadron II: Rogue Leader and Wave Race for $10-15 online, well, that is a lot of cheap fun.

As the games above show, there are a lot of good reasons to own a GCN. Obviously there are no good reasons for you to own a GCN, but you are not everyone. Most of us see Nintendo's faults, and most of us are "gamers" not system advocates. This means that I like games on the Xbox, PS3, PC, and yes, even the purple lunch box! Like I have stated in the past, I feel Nintendo is going a route different than my personal gaming tastes. But that said, that does not mean I have to "hate" everything they do, exeggerate my case against them, or other such nonsense. And most of all, as long as Nintendo is in the red I see no reason for them to stop making consoles. They have an insanely powerful list of franchises that Sony and MS would kill for. As long as gamers want these enough to buy their systems and Nintendo can make a profit then they should continue doing such. YOU are not their market, but do not hate them because they do not make products you like. Not everyone has the same tastes in games, and Nintendo has done a good job so far of finding gamers who want to play their games. That obviously does not include you

 

[cthellis42]

the GC of course has no lightgun games because they'll never allow a lightgun to be made for their system again.

Um... Why the heck would they have that attitude?

 

[hovz]

the GC of course has no lightgun games because they'll never allow a lightgun to be made for their system again.

Um... Why the heck would they have that attitude?

cuz parents wouldnt buy their 7 year olds fisher price toys if they came with plastic guns.