Revolution cooling issues revisited.

[Ty]

It is more likely w/in the $250+ vicinity shog.

In your estimation how much time will elapse between the launch of XBox360 and the Revolution?

 

[Shogmaster]

It is more likely w/in the $250+ vicinity shog.

Then it might as well be $299 and compete toe to toe on power with X360. What's a lousy $50 discount gonna buy you in the marketplace?

 

[Teasy]

Mr. Saturn

While I'd like to agree with you, part of the reason so many people believe the Revolution is going to be so weak has to do with Nintendo themselves. Just take a look at this quote from Iwata regarding the Revolution's power

That quote doesn't really say anything about how powerful Revolution might be. I know what you mean in that its not the kind of thing Sony or MS would say, there's no hype their. But this is Nintendo we're talking about (and Nintendo of Japan at that). They don't hype technology, but that's never stopped them from putting out very competetively powered consoles in the past.

Remember what Nintendo said about GameCube a year before its release? (At E3 before its specs had been shown). They described it as a small quiet affordable console and said that graphics were less important then gameplay (the same stance as with Revolution). I also remember Yamauchi saying that with GameCube they were not trying to match the power of next gen systems like PS2! Yet GameCube was, and is, a very powerful console.

 

[Saem]

Nintendo has usually kept it's performance estimates realistic/understated, considering what they are, they're in the same neighborhood as PS3 and XBox 360.

 

[PC-Engine]

Then it might as well be $299 and compete toe to toe on power with X360. What's a lousy $50 discount gonna buy you in the marketplace?

A game or a second controller or a 1GB SD card.

Or a $300 console/game bundle.

 

[Shogmaster]

A game or a second controller or a 1GB SD card.

Or a $300 console/game bundle.

That's not enough, especially if Rev is forsaking HD gaming.

 

[PC-Engine]

That's not enough, especially if Rev is forsaking HD gaming.

HD gaming is just a bullet point that has very little significance to 99% of gamers. Like I said many times already, if Revolution can deliver the same type of graphics as PS3 and Xbox 360 with nice 6xAA at EDTV (852x480) resolution, it will not matter one bit.

 

[Shogmaster]

HD gaming is just a bullet point that has very little significance to 99% of gamers.

99% of gamers have access to computer monitors. I will be 720p gaming on my X360 (on a CRT no less), and I don't have a "HDTV". With the availablity of proper $20 cables, HD is VERY significant for gamers in next gen IMO.

Like I said many times already, if Rtevolution can deliver the same type of graphics as PS3 and Xbox 360 with nice 6xAA at EDTV (852x480) resolution, it will not matter one bit.

Even 640x480 @ 4xAA requires 10MB eDRAM without tiling, don't it? I think 2xAA from Rev @ 640x480 is more realistic, unless you want a giant Hollywood part.

 

[randycat99]

That pce quote is just screaming to be used in a sig!

 

[Readykilowatt]

99% of gamers have access to computer monitors.

Where did you get this information? Or is it another assumption?

I will be 720p gaming on my X360 (on a CRT no less), and I don't have a "HDTV". With the availablity of proper $20 cables, HD is VERY significant for gamers in next gen IMO.

Not IMO. Super-duper-high-resolution is meaningless to most gamers. Don't believe me? Then watch as Zelda on the Revolution @ 640x480 outclass and outsell Fable 2 @ 1280x720 on the Xbox360.

 

[PC-Engine]

That pce quote is just screaming to be used in a sig!

Only a very stupid and sad person would use it in a signature since the context of what was said is as clear as night and day...

99% of gamers have access to computer monitors. I will be 720p gaming on my X360 (on a CRT no less), and I don't have a "HDTV". With the availablity of proper $20 cables, HD is VERY significant for gamers in next gen IMO.

Sure but how many Xbox 360 users will be using it with a computer monitor? 99%? I think not.

Regardless how much of a difference will there be between 1280x720 with 4xAA vs 852x480 with 6xAA? You're just arguing over numbers without even knowing what the final output quality will be.

Even 640x480 @ 4xAA requires 10MB eDRAM without tiling, don't it? I think 2xAA from Rev @ 640x480 is more realistic, unless you want a giant Hollywood part.

How do PC GPUs do 8xAA at 1600x1200 without eDRAM?

 

[Shogmaster]

Where did you get this information? Or is it another assumption?

Seems like a common sense to me. I doubt majority of computer users are laptop users. And I would think that most folks have a computer in their house. If you are gamer enough to get a $299 X360 at launch, you would at least have one computer available to you, and it probably has a stand alone monitor.

Not IMO. Super-duper-high-resolution is meaningless to most gamers. Don't believe me? Then watch as Zelda on the Revolution @ 640x480 outclass and outsell Fable 2 @ 1280x720 on the Xbox360.

And watch Halo3 @ 1280x720 outsell both of them? What the hell does that prove?

Sure but how many Xbox 360 users will be using it with a computer monitor? 99%? I think not.

If it's just a matter of a $20 VGA kit, I think many will give it a go, even out of mere curiosity.

Regardless how much of a difference will there be between 1280x720 with 4xAA vs 852x480 with 6xAA? You're just arguing over numbers without even knowing what the final output quality will be.

I think we are both doing that.

How do PC GPUs do 8xAA at 1600x1200 without eDRAM?

Rev is suppose to provide seamless BC to GC (which I think points away from emulation). I think it's a good guess that Hollywood should have eDRAM.

 

[PC-Engine]

If it's just a matter of a $20 VGA kit, I think many will give it a go, even out of mere curiosity.

Many is not majority. I'm going by the fact 99% of GCN owners don't use component. What makes you think 99% of Revolution buyers will suddenly care about HD?

I think we are both doing that.

Actually YOU are saying HD matters without any evidence to support that claim. I'm just saying there's very little image quality differences and you can see this in current PC games running at 800x600 with 8xAA vs 1280x1024 with 4xAA.

Rev is suppose to provide seamless BC to GC (which I think points away from emulation). I think it's a good guess that Hollywood should have eDRAM.

Sure and you only need 3MB for that. In Revolution mode you can use the 3MB of eDRAM as maybe a texture cache and the external 1T-SRAM as a frambuffer.

 

[Shogmaster]

Many is not majority. I'm going by the fact 99% of GCN owners don't use component. What makes you think 99% of Revolution buyers will suddenly care about HD?

Let's not misuse my 99% quote. I said 99% would have access to PC monitors, not that 99% will use PC monitors with X360. Regardless, getting 720p experience out of X360 will not be expensive as one would first assume. One can pick up a 17" CRT capable for 1280x1024 for less than $100 these days.

Actually YOU are saying HD matters without any evidence to support that claim.

And what was your evidence that it would not matter? Neither of us have anything concrete to back up our claims, so stop the finger wagging please.

I'm just saying there's very little image quality differences and you can see this in current PC games running at 800x600 with 8xAA vs 1280x1024 with 4xAA.

That's fine, but asking anything over 4xAA from a $199 console is asking alot IMO. I can easily see Rev doing 4xAA @ 640x480. Beyond that, I wouldn't take anything for granted.

Sure and you only need 3MB for that. In Revolution mode you can use the 3MB of eDRAM as maybe a texture cache and the external 1T-SRAM as a frambuffer.

I can see something like this, but if you are utilizing eDRAM in the die anyways, it'd be a shame just to do it for BC. You could easily increase the eDRAM amount to 5~6MB and use it in the same manner as with GC, enjoying all the same benefits of embedded frame buffer (As long as you are not asking for something crazy like 6x~8xAA).

 

[Readykilowatt]

Seems like a common sense to me. <snip>

No, it was an assumption (take to be the case or to be true; accept without verification or proof). Without proof, your words (and percentages) are meaningless.

And watch Halo3 @ 1280x720 outsell both of them?

Halo 3 outsell Zelda on the Revolution? I doubt it.

What the hell does that prove?

Calm down, I'm just doing a little forecasting. BTW, Halo 3 will sell well because it's a great game and the sequel to a mega-franchise, not because it runs at 1280x720.

 

[Shogmaster]

No, it was an assumption (take to be the case or to be true; accept without verification or proof). Without proof, your words (and percentages) are meaningless.

We're all assuming around here bub. None of us have solid proof of anything.

Halo 3 outsell Zelda on the Revolution? I doubt it.

Ummm..... Have you been following the sales numbers of those two franchises this gen?

Calm down, I'm just doing a little forecasting.

I think you might be forecasting for a bizzaro parallel dimension.

BTW, Halo 3 will sell well because it's a great game and the sequel to a mega-franchise, not because it runs at 1280x720.

And Zelda will sell well because it's a great game and the sequel to a mega-franchise, not because it runs at 640x480.

 

[Sonic]

I see that Nintendo is not open and forward looking into accepting new standards in TV technology. HD is not some gimmick that MS and Sony are sputing or hyping up. It is a standard that is going into the future that will be in many households within a few years. As the TV's become more affordable more people will have them.

Nintendo not supporting HD will probably have little effect on them from the beginning, but in a couple years it could lure away a few buyers. Even then I doubt not having HD support is going to hurt Nintendo in the long run mainly because Nintendo is not trying to grasp the entire market. It seems Nintendo is content on catering to its own fans and leaving it at that. If they wanted to go for the mass market with their consoles then it wouldn't be naive to think HD isn't important.

The whole argument against HD is interesting in the sense that it really isn't needed right now. Going into the future it will be mandatory to cater to the market that wants the better visuals.

8XAA at 800x600 looks almost the same as 1280x1024 with 4XAA? Perhaps with some games, but not all.

It ultimately comes down to when Nintendo plans on releasing their console. They could maybe get something similar to Xbox 360 performance in the tiny space if they opted for a 2007 release. I think that would be doable, but by that time they would probably wish to reconsider supporting HD.

 

[Readykilowatt]

We're all assuming around here bub. None of us have solid proof of anything.

I know.

Ummm..... Have you been following the sales numbers of those two franchises this gen?

Yes, but I still doubt that Halo 3 will outsell Revolution's Zelda.

I think you might be forecasting for a bizzaro parallel dimension.

That was your retort? Well, you certainly lack intelligence.

And Zelda will sell well because it's a great game and the sequel to a mega-franchise, not because it runs at 640x480.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[PC-Engine]

Let's not misuse my 99% quote. I said 99% would have access to PC monitors, not that 99% will use PC monitors with X360.

Ok, but why even bring it up in the first place if it doesn't support your argument which was about the major importance of HD gaming?

And what was your evidence that it would not matter? Neither of us have anything concrete to back up our claims, so stop the finger wagging please.

My evidence is the fact people bought 20 million GCNs yet only 1% of them cared about component. If only 1% of those gamers cared about component then how many of those gamers would care about HD gaming? Not many.

That's fine, but asking anything over 4xAA from a $199 console is asking alot IMO. I can easily see Rev doing 4xAA @ 640x480. Beyond that, I wouldn't take anything for granted.

How do you know it will be $199? What if it turns out to be $249 without a game and $299 with a game?

I can see something like this, but if you are utilizing eDRAM in the die anyways, it'd be a shame just to do it for BC. You could easily increase the eDRAM amount to 5~6MB and use it in the same manner as with GC, enjoying all the same benefits of embedded frame buffer (As long as you are not asking for something crazy like 6x~8xAA).

IMO it's only worth it if 640x480 with 4xAA makes a big difference, otherwise I'd rather use those extra 25 million transistors for more PS/VS since AA can be done with offchip memory and you can therefore run at 852x480 with 6xAA.

 

[Readykilowatt]

To Sonic

Let's assume for a second that 99% of households will have a HDTV by 2007. Why can't the average Joe consumer enjoy playing SSBM, Mario, etc. for the Revolution @ 480p on their HDTVs?