Revolution cooling issues revisited.

[PC-Engine]

That´s what I´m referring to. PS2 had a very reasonable size, and still packed some very powerfull hardware. We jump forward to 2005, and we see PS3 being quite a bit bigger, at the very least twice the size of the Revolution. Is revolution´s fabrication process confirmed?

I ask because I´m under the impression that it´s at 90nm like the other two, so I don´t see how Nintendo could manage to create such a small machine while still being very competiive. Afterall, I imagine Sony and MS would have liked to make their consoles smaller from the get go.

PS3 has an internal PS and going by the PS2 their board is likely bigger and more complex (more chips) than what you would see in Revolution. If you look at the latest PSTwo's motherboard it still has a bunch of chips on there even though the CPU/GPU is a single chip now. The new board even seems to take up the same area as the board in GCN. In other words even with a process shrink AND single chip CPU/GPU AND external PS AND HDD bay removed AND removal of huge heatsink AND slim DVD drive the motherboard hasn't shrunk all that much. You build the case around the motherboard. My guess is that the motherboard in PS3 will be near the same size as Xbox 360's ie both boards would not fit in a Revolution sized case.

 

[Ooh-videogames]

That´s what I´m referring to. PS2 had a very reasonable size, and still packed some very powerfull hardware. We jump forward to 2005, and we see PS3 being quite a bit bigger, at the very least twice the size of the Revolution. Is revolution´s fabrication process confirmed?

I ask because I´m under the impression that it´s at 90nm like the other two, so I don´t see how Nintendo could manage to create such a small machine while still being very competiive. Afterall, I imagine Sony and MS would have liked to make their consoles smaller from the get go.

SSDOI, just may do the trick. Strainged Silicon directly on Insulator(IBM) has been reported to reduce powerconsumption. Articles I've read suggest that the technology will be incorporated into the Cell.

AMD is claiming a 24% increase in speed, at similar power levels, of transistors using this technology compared to those that do not.(90nm)

 

[Farid]

Thread pruned fom the Off Topic about fake renders and the discussion about what's on-topic and what's not.

The topic is "Revolution cooling issues revisited". Now, discuss, folks, discuss!
I said... Discuss!

PS: If you want to discuss anything else but Revolution heat dissipation related issues, start a new topic, thanks.

 

[Li Mu Bai]

Don't know how relevant this is as far as size case design limited heat dissipation is concerned, but Nintendo's usage of MoSys' 1-TSRAM-Q memory technology allows for some advantages. Generally, high-density memory designs face tighter signal margins as voltages drop in more advance technologies at 90nm & below.

With its improved SNR, 1-TSRAM-Q can take advantage of additional available timing margins to speed performance or reliabiity aspects for applications that do not necessarily require clock rates at the edge of the envelope.

So what does this mean regarding heat dissipation issues? The favorable ratio to bit cell circuitry also translates to reduced power dissipation characteristics for 1-TSRAM-Q memory solutions. Shorter wires, fewer parasitics, & lower voltage combine to reduce MoSys's dynamic power requirements w/out impacting speed or reliability.

The additional etch & implant steps occur before transistors are fabricated, so this approach introduces no extra thermal cycles.

 

[Almasy]

But does the price of 1T SRAM low enough to have at least 256MBs of it in Revolution?

 

[jvd]

Jvd

The Athlon 64 core is still less then 2 years old so I don't think that's an appropriate comparison.

Anyway so you mean a core that is based on Gekko but modified/advanced? Yeah that could be good enough of course. I was thinking you meant an almost identical core. Still do Nintendo want to spend the kind of R&D money needed to improve a PPC750cx (G3) CPU to the point where it competes with todays CPU's? Why not just use something similar that has already been designed and just tweak that slightly to add what you need?

The athlon 64 core is based off the athlon core which came out in 1999/2000 i believe .

Yes its been enhanced but i expect the gekko to be enhanced too. Better cache system perhaps better branch prediction . Some tighter timings . Bigger cache . Things like that . I don't expect them to just die shrink a gekko . But to keep it close enough so the leap in development is not hard .

 

[Li Mu Bai]

But does the price of 1T SRAM low enough to have at least 256MBs of it in Revolution?

I believe so Almasy. Fabricating the FAC requires only an additional mask that is non-critical, thereby rendering it relatively inexpensive. With two additional steps, 1-TSRAM-Q raises manufacturing costs by about 5%, vs. the traditional 1-TSRAM that the GC employed I believe.

The benefit is that the Quad technology (also the 4th generation of 1-TSRAM following 1-TSRAM, 1-TSRAM-M & R) reduces the memory array by a factor of 2. (vs. 1-TSRAM again) So for a typical SOC comprising roughly 50% memory, 1-TSRAM-Q typically returns a 25% cost improvement at only a 5% increment in manufacturing cost, a favorable cost model. Remember, Nintendo was once in talks to obtain a very cost prohibitive XDR memory solution. Also devs. while enjoying the benefits of 1-TSRAM, (& even singing its praises) constantly complained about its small footprint. I do not believe that Nintendo will disappoint on this front again.

I know that this isn't a definitive answer Almasy, but w/out knowing Nintendo's specifics, such as production date, expected lifetime volume, process geometry, number of metal layers, (as they do not use silicon) the Revolution's clockspeed, logic on chip, area, etc. it would be impossible for me to determine.

 

[Teasy]

The athlon 64 core is based off the athlon core which came out in 1999/2000 i believe.

Yes its based on that CPU, but as you said it has a lot of improvements made. As I said if those kind of improvements were made to the Gekko core then I would agree that it could be powerful enough to compete. Since in effect it would no longer be "Gekko".

 

[Shogmaster]

I believe the G4 and Gecko both used the execution core of the G3, but I don't think there's been any more advanced chips than the G4 and Gecko(btw, which one is more advanced anyhow? for its time, Gecko had some major advantages over the G4) using the same execution core.

If Rev is just a suped up GC in a smaller packaging as some rumors are suggesting, IBM could finally be finding use for the 750GX (Gobi) or 750VX (Mojave) designs that was finished back in 2002/2003 but never used in iBooks because of switch to Motorola/Freescale's G4s by Apple.

750GX (Gobi) was suppose to be a 130nm CPU with 1MB of L2 cache that scales to 1.1Ghz, and only dissipate 8 watts @ 1Ghz.

750VX (Mojave) was Gobi + Altivec and designed to scale to 1.5~1.6Ghz (not much else was known).

 

[Almasy]

I believe so Almasy. Fabricating the FAC requires only an additional mask that is non-critical, thereby rendering it relatively inexpensive. With two additional steps, 1-TSRAM-Q raises manufacturing costs by about 5%, vs. the traditional 1-TSRAM that the GC employed I believe.

The benefit is that the Quad technology (also the 4th generation of 1-TSRAM following 1-TSRAM, 1-TSRAM-M & R) reduces the memory array by a factor of 2. (vs. 1-TSRAM again) So for a typical SOC comprising roughly 50% memory, 1-TSRAM-Q typically returns a 25% cost improvement at only a 5% increment in manufacturing cost, a favorable cost model. Remember, Nintendo was once in talks to obtain a very cost prohibitive XDR memory solution. Also devs. while enjoying the benefits of 1-TSRAM, (& even singing its praises) constantly complained about its small footprint. I do not believe that Nintendo will disappoint on this front again.

I know that this isn't a definitive answer Almasy, but w/out knowing Nintendo's specifics, such as production date, expected lifetime volume, process geometry, number of metal layers, (as they do not use silicon) the Revolution's clockspeed, logic on chip, area, etc. it would be impossible for me to determine.

To tell the truth I didn´t understand most of your post (not familiar with the topic), but thanks a lot for the answer.

 

[Li Mu Bai]

750VX (Mojave) was Gobi + Altivec and designed to scale to 1.5~1.6Ghz (not much else was known).

So dual modified 750VX's shog? Interesting conjecture. The only problem is that Broadway isn't simply a "beefed" up Gekko. It will be a true "next-generation" central processor. Quite efficient heat dissipation numbers though.

 

[PC-Engine]

So dual modified 750VX's shog? Interesting conjecture. The only problem is that Hollywood isn't simply a "beefed" up Gekko. It will be a true "next-generation" central processor. Quite efficient heat dissipation numbers though.

I think you meant Broadway.

 

[Li Mu Bai]

I think you meant Broadway.

Indeed I did, corrected PC-E. You have made some very valid & quite feasible points regarding effective heat dissipation & why the case size doesn't necessarily inhibit power expectations. Good show ol' chap, many forrumites here believe that the 360 & PS3 will make the Revolution look like the 2600. Not so.

 

[Shogmaster]

So dual modified 750VX's shog? Interesting conjecture. The only problem is that Broadway isn't simply a "beefed" up Gekko. It will be a true "next-generation" central processor. Quite efficient heat dissipation numbers though.

We are assumming alot with absolutely no info about the procs other than their names, aren't we? The only things we do know for sure is the small volume that everything must fit into.

Besides, Mojave is several degrees more stronger and faster than the Gekko, especially if it's a dual core variation. It's like comparing 1.4Ghz Tualatin Pentium 3 to 450Mhz Pentium 2.

 

[Mr. Saturn]

Indeed I did, corrected PC-E. You have made some very valid & quite feasible points regarding effective heat dissipation & why the case size doesn't necessarily inhibit power expectations. Good show ol' chap, many forrumites here believe that the 360 & PS3 will make the Revolution look like the 2600. Not so.

While I'd like to agree with you, part of the reason so many people believe the Revolution is going to be so weak has to do with Nintendo themselves. Just take a look at this quote from Iwata regarding the Revolution's power

I don't think the Revolution's graphics wil be inferior in anly fashion to Xbox 360 or PS3. Even if you look at Zelda on Gamecube- I don't think that looks inferior to what [the competition] is touting as "next generation" visuals.

Now that quote starts out well enough that is until he tries to compare Zelda to the next generation. Don't get me wrong I think Zelda looks great, it just isn't comparable to next gen though, especially when compared to such titles as RE 5 or Elder Scrolls Oblivion. So uh if Iwata thinks Twilight Princess is comparable to games on PS3 and 360 then I can defenitely see why people are worried about the Revolution's power.

 

[Saem]

The Gekko ISA will likely be perpetuated and extended, single core, OoOE and enhancement to vector processing, things will be fairly run of the mill, but that should keep things small, cool and in line with ease of development.

 

[Shogmaster]

The Gekko ISA will likely be perpetuated and extended, single core, OoOE and enhancement to vector processing, things will be fairly run of the mill, but that should keep things small, cool and in line with ease of development.

You've just described Mojave (PowerPC 750VX) !

750CX/Gekko (180nm, 366Mhz ~ 600Mhz, 256KB L2, 100Mhz FSB, SDR) to 750VX (sub 130nm, 1.4Ghz ~1.8Ghz, 1MB L2, 400Mhz FSB, DDR, VMX/Altivec) should provide incredibly simple BC and quite significant power upgrade, yet providing the smallest thermal output amongst the available candidates.

 

[Saem]

You've just described Mojave (PowerPC 750VX) !

Entirely intentional. I don't think there is any reason that Nintendo needs to go gang busters, it's just not what their image dictates.

 

[Shogmaster]

it's just not what their image dictates.

And more practically, not what the Rev casing size and the intended pricing ($199 vicinity)dictates.

 

[Li Mu Bai]

And more practically, not what the Rev casing size and the intended pricing ($199 vicinity)dictates.

It is more likely w/in the $250+ vicinity shog.