Revolution cooling issues revisited.

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Teasy said:
That wouldn't be fast (comparatively). After all Gekko is a 1999/2000 PPC chip, its not going to compete with what's on the market today clock for clock.

I agree with Li Mu Bai on this one, using old technology supped up isn't a good option at all. Since when have Nintendo ever used a higher clocked version of a previous generations CPU in their new home console?

Since the box is so small, I´m under the impression that Nintendo is trying to avoid adding anything beyond what they would consider critical. I don´t think the Gekko would be used to emulate the CPU, based on that. How would BC be achieved then? What processor could be used that provided a good enough technichal leap while being able to perfectly emulate GCN? :?:
 
I don't see why the gekko wouldn't be good enough .

A dual core gekko with lots of cache and mabye a fat bus to some t1 sram will be very powerfull



Anyway as for cooling they should be fine . Esp if they have an external powersupply . Just need proper air flow
 
jvd said:
I don't see why the gekko wouldn't be good enough .

A dual core gekko with lots of cache and mabye a fat bus to some t1 sram will be very powerfull



Anyway as for cooling they should be fine . Esp if they have an external powersupply . Just need proper air flow

I ruled out Gekko since I was under the impression that an upgraded one wouldn´t be good enough to compete, or at least that´s what Li Mu Bai and Teasy stated. I imagine that would be the easiest way towards backwards compatibility without adding unnecesary components to a machine starved for volume.

A drop to 65nm, plus a small, average-good performing CPU would be optimal for the kind of case Revolution has. A variation of ATI´s latest mobility GPUs would also be adequeate in my very uninformed opinion. :p
 
"Upgrading" a gecko to a faster speed and with a phat memory bus may be almost as much work as designing a relatively new design....heck it probably would be. Taking a cpu like the Gecko with like 4 pipeline stages and a 32 bit memory bus and getting it to 1.5ghz with some decent bandwidth would be an upgrade worthy of....well maybe something like going from Pentium 3 to Pentium M.
 
To those debating heatsink heights: heatpipes.

I'm not really sure it's as simple as that. Heatpipes dont need to be vertical. In fact many heatsinks with built in heatpipes have horizontally mounted pipe configurations. Highend laptops are a good example. Even the little DC had a horizontally configured heatpipe. 8)

By going wider, you also need to go thicker. Otherwise, your temperature gradient will be too great at locations distant from the heat source. Once that happens, you can have square miles of heatsink and it will make nada difference in heat dissipation capability. The bulk temperature at distant areas of the heatsink would be too low to drive out any heat from the metal to air. The aluminum foil example presented earlier is a perfect demonstration of that. Surface area is good, but its the surface area that is very near to the heat source that does the bulk of the work. You can extend the heatsink perimeteral dimensions as far as you want, but very quickly it will yield only wasted metal, rather than increased heat dissipation. Most heatsink designs you find are designed to be the size that they are because that is the optimal size for that physical configuration (the videocard heatsink, for example).


That is true and the tinfoil example is good for the purpose of making a point, but it doesn't exactly mimic what's being proposed here because you're ignoring other factors that are more important when you're not making a heatsink 1 mile long. When you double the length and width of a heatsink that is 2.5"x3" you are also increasing the FIN surface area by 4 times. We're not talking about increasing the length and width by a mile and shaving off the fins so that it would look like a sheet of tin foil. Not only that, but we're using very thermally conductive alloys here so overall the net effect of not going taller while only going a couple of inches wider is insignificant. You also need to factor in the chip size to heatsink contact area ratio too. In fact using that 1 mile heatsink example would actually make sense in a situatiion where you had millions of chips along the length of that 1 mile heatsink assuming the ratio of heatsink to chip area is appropriate. In my proposed solution, the total chip area (CPU+GPU+RAM) would be around 6 sq inches which goes very well with the 4x2.5x3" heatsink. That's a 1:5 ratio which is a far cry from that 1:1,000,000 "example".

You cannot arbitrarily increase dimensions w/o re-evaluating the base metal thickness, and assume it's just going to work "gooder".

And you cannot arbitrarily make up rediculous fantasy scenarios that don't apply to the specific implementation being proposed to make it "badder". We're not mounting a 30 sq in heatsink to just one chip, therefore the spread of heat through the heatsink isn't isolated to a single hotspot.

Someone earlier mentioned heatpipes as a solution, which could work to put more heatsink area to work, but even that can only be applied so far (no pun intended), and not without additional losses (and costs) in of itself, as well. The bottomline here is that, like most things, simply specifying "more" will not yield a workable solution. You got to re-evaluate the entire thing as a system to put "more" to good use.

If heatpipes are used in Revolution, it would be in a configuration like that used in highend notebook computers which do use heatpipes but still only take up about .75" of height. IMO, heatpipes might not even be needed at all.
 
NES to SNES. They had backwards compatibility planned, and the SNES did just fine because of its graphical capabilities.

NES used a 8bit 6502 CPU while SNES used a 16-bit 65c816 CPU. They were both from the same company but they weren't the same CPU.
 
Since the box is so small, I´m under the impression that Nintendo is trying to avoid adding anything beyond what they would consider critical. I don´t think the Gekko would be used to emulate the CPU, based on that. How would BC be achieved then? What processor could be used that provided a good enough technichal leap while being able to perfectly emulate GCN?

A PowerPC CPU a couple of generations up from the Gekko (similar to the CPU used in 360).

I don't see why the gekko wouldn't be good enough .

A dual core gekko with lots of cache and mabye a fat bus to some t1 sram will be very powerfull

Depends what you see as good enough I suppose. I just don't think that using a 5+ year old CPU design is a good idea. After all there's a reason why people make better CPU's rather then just trying to clock old ones as high as possible.
 
Teasy said:
A PowerPC CPU a couple of generations up from the Gekko (similar to the CPU used in 360).

That´s pretty much what I was thinking. Depending on the ammount of heat that can be dissipated and the fabrication process, could you fit a single core G5 inside Revolution? Or would one need to go back to a G4?

I´d like to know, since that little box has me very skeptical on what you can actually put in it right about now. Wierd strategy to go for something that small (and the final console Nintendo´s PR guy mentioned would be even smaller, IIRC).
 
Depends what you see as good enough I suppose. I just don't think that using a 5+ year old CPU design is a good idea. After all there's a reason why people make better CPU's rather then just trying to clock old ones as high as possible.
why the athlon 64 dual core is a great performer . Don't see the problem .

I'm not saying just take a gekko put two on a die and 4 mbs of cache . Of course they will do some updates and tweak and modify it .

I can see a dual core modified gekko as a great move .

You can then take a single core version of lower ghz and put it in a portable in 2 or 3 years to replace the ds and have good graphics . Scale the video gpu down also (less pipes ) and you have a good portable on 45nms or so . IT will also play all past nintendo games . Which would be great .
 
Teasy said:
Since the box is so small, I´m under the impression that Nintendo is trying to avoid adding anything beyond what they would consider critical. I don´t think the Gekko would be used to emulate the CPU, based on that. How would BC be achieved then? What processor could be used that provided a good enough technichal leap while being able to perfectly emulate GCN?

A PowerPC CPU a couple of generations up from the Gekko (similar to the CPU used in 360).

I don't see why the gekko wouldn't be good enough .

A dual core gekko with lots of cache and mabye a fat bus to some t1 sram will be very powerfull

Depends what you see as good enough I suppose. I just don't think that using a 5+ year old CPU design is a good idea. After all there's a reason why people make better CPU's rather then just trying to clock old ones as high as possible.

1. I think the Gekko had some instructions which weren't part of the normal powerPC subset, so it'd have to be gecko based for backwards compatibility.

2. Pentium Pro to Pentium 3 was a nearly unchanged design, and the current Pentium M is only 1 generation ahead. PC cpu designs generally do last for a while. As far as consoles, didn't sega use higher clocked 68k cores in the 32x and saturn?(I think in addition to other cpus though) And was the MIPS core in the PSP seen in any previous consoles?
 
That´s pretty much what I was thinking. Depending on the ammount of heat that can be dissipated and the fabrication process, could you fit a single core G5 inside Revolution? Or would one need to go back to a G4?

Apparently 360's CPU isn't very big and doesn't disipate that much heat. So I don't see why they couldn't use a 2.2Ghz version of 360's CPU in there. That would make the CPU far cooler and still give 70% of the theoretical performance of 360's CPU. Also maybe they could include an extra 500k of cache to make the real world performance closer to 80-85%.. All guess work, but I honestly don't see the small case as being that limiting.
 
Jvd

The Athlon 64 core is still less then 2 years old so I don't think that's an appropriate comparison.

Anyway so you mean a core that is based on Gekko but modified/advanced? Yeah that could be good enough of course. I was thinking you meant an almost identical core. Still do Nintendo want to spend the kind of R&D money needed to improve a PPC750cx (G3) CPU to the point where it competes with todays CPU's? Why not just use something similar that has already been designed and just tweak that slightly to add what you need?

Fox5

1. I think the Gekko had some instructions which weren't part of the normal powerPC subset, so it'd have to be gecko based for backwards compatibility.

Not really, it would just have to have those instructions added. Just like the same instructions were added to the PPC750cx when modifying it to make Gekko.
 
Teasy said:
Jvd

The Athlon 64 core is still less then 2 years old so I don't think that's an appropriate comparison.

Anyway so you mean a core that is based on Gekko but modified/advanced? Yeah that could be good enough of course. I was thinking you meant an almost identical core. Still do Nintendo want to spend the kind of R&D money needed to improve a G3 based CPU to the point where it competes with todays CPU's? Why not just use something similar that has already been designed and just tweak that slightly for their system?

How much would it cost to keep the same execution core, but update the memory bus and cache design?

BTW, the Athlon 64 is based off the same Athlon core that released in 1999, just with 64 bit support, SSE1-3, 3dnow+, a far far improved cache, an integrated memory controller, and some slight tweaks.

I believe the G4 and Gecko both used the execution core of the G3, but I don't think there's been any more advanced chips than the G4 and Gecko(btw, which one is more advanced anyhow? for its time, Gecko had some major advantages over the G4) using the same execution core.
 
How much would it cost to keep the same execution core, but update the memory bus and cache design?

No idea I suppose. I've got no idea how much it would cost to do anything with a CPU. I can only guess at what sounds more expensive.

BTW, the Athlon 64 is based off the same Athlon core that released in 1999, just with 64 bit support, SSE1-3, 3dnow+, a far far improved cache, an integrated memory controller, and some slight tweaks.

Of course the massive majority of CPU's are based on earlier models. But that's quite a few changes you've mentioned there. If Nintendo were going to make that kind of modification to Gekko plus use two or three cores on one chip then yeah it could be very competetive. But the R&D costs surely would be high. At the end of the day IBM have moved well past the core Gekko was based on and have spent plenty of money doing it. So it just seems sensible to take advantage of that and use one of their newer designs. I suppose backwards compatability makes the situation a bit more complicated though.
 
Well, assuming it fully supports the same instruction set the Gecko and functions mostly the same(meaning the inorder cores of the X360 may not be a very ideal choice, though I've heard Gecko/G3/G4 described as nearly in-order cpus so maybe their programs weren't written that differently from how a single threaded x360 program would run) then backwards compatibility shouldn't be a problem.

As far as the Athlon goes, the only changes to it that really had notable effects on performance were the improved cache and integrated memory controller(the two most significant changes though), but it helps that the Athlon core is quite a bit more advanced than Gecko, at least a full cpu generation ahead of it and now with some major enhancements to it to maximize its performance.
 
Example of a highend single slot GPU. This configuration needs ducting to the exterior to be more efficient. Slap a slim DVD drive on top and you're good to go. G70: 110nm 300 million transistors 334mm²

14-127-187-01.JPG


bfgs1.jpg
 
PC-Engine said:
Example of a highend single slot GPU. This configuration needs ducting to the exterior to be more efficient. Slap a slim DVD drive on top and you're good to go. G70: 110nm 300 million transistors 334mm²

14-127-187-01.JPG


bfgs1.jpg

All your going to get is a bunch BUT this and that, some of this to tell you it won't work.

This is all despite the fact that Hollywood will be a 90nm part compared to the G70.

Oh and like the new forum.
 
Something is just confusing about all of this. If a very powerfull console is possible within such a small space, then how come MS and Sony´s consoles are much bigger in comparison? You could accuse MS of inefficiency given Xbox, but Sony´s PS2 design was relatively compact and that was with the PSU inside the console.

Since fabrication process is the same, why weren´t both of these companies able to create smaller consoles then? Politics?
 
Almasy said:
Something is just confusing about all of this. If a very powerfull console is possible within such a small space, then how come MS and Sony´s consoles are much bigger in comparison? You could accuse MS of inefficiency given Xbox, but Sony´s PS2 design was relatively compact and that was with the PSU inside the console.

Since fabrication process is the same, why weren´t both of these companies able to create smaller consoles then? Politics?

The launch PS2s used a big motherboard and a very big heatsink and it had an internal powersupply and fullsize HDD bay. The die sizes of the CPU and GPU were very big too.
 
PC-Engine said:
The launch PS2s used a big motherboard and a very big heatsink and it had an internal powersupply and fullsize HDD bay. The die sizes of the CPU and GPU were very big too.

That´s what I´m referring to. PS2 had a very reasonable size, and still packed some very powerfull hardware. We jump forward to 2005, and we see PS3 being quite a bit bigger, at the very least twice the size of the Revolution. Is revolution´s fabrication process confirmed?

I ask because I´m under the impression that it´s at 90nm like the other two, so I don´t see how Nintendo could manage to create such a small machine while still being very competiive. Afterall, I imagine Sony and MS would have liked to make their consoles smaller from the get go.
 
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