Recent events: NV30 worth the wait?

NV30 worth the wait?


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Morrowind is definitely a good example of a game that could benefit from the R9700. While Morrowind is well playable on my Ti4200 without AA or AF, once I activate either it starts getting choppy outdoors. Maybe I could turn the eyecandy down, but I don't like to do that! ;)

I think this "current cards are fast enough" argument is pretty poor, always was always will be, especially since the R9700 is a card that appears to give you a m a j o r boost in performance, one rarely seen before between generations, at least when AA and AF are used (and I tend to pretty much always have them on). A GF4 already has pretty playable AA+AF framerates in many games, true, but it certainly isn't at a level where a more in performance can't be seen as usefull. Maybe its not a must have upgrade for people who own current GF4Ti or R8500 boards, but for gamers with R7500/GF2 class hardware looking for "the best" I expect you can't go wrong with this card.

An argument that makes a little more sense is the lack of support for the new features as DX9 isn't even there yet (though there will be OGL support), but the speed and IQ is already there to profit from instantly, so it doesn't really matter as DX9 is only amatter of time IMO.

What I also don't understand though is the cry for respect for ATI. Christ, I think almost everybody has a great deal of respect for this new product. Read up on it in the release-thread, its full of hurrays! You just can't seriously expect people to now suddenly stop discussing what else is coming up, shiverring in eager anticipation on its shipping, continuously praising it based on an announcement/preview and have nothing else on their minds anymore. This board is about 3D discussion, and most of the mystery is gone, the announcements and previews are out, the appetite has been catered for (for now, I guess I'm not the only one awaiting REAL reviews). The upcoming NV30 now simply attracts more interest, which it completely natural and understandable IMO. Its the next exciting thing on the horizon, and most of all we already know how great its competition is, which makes it all the more exciting how the previous king of the hill will strike back. If NV30 would have been released first I'd pretty much expect a similar reaction ("can it beat this and that feature? will it have the same or even better performance? blah blah").

Of course there's always gonna be the "next best thing", even after NV30, but I think most people will be like me and like compare within one product generation! Also ATI and Nvidia are the top competitors, most other IHVs currently only seem to be aiming their more interesting parts for release sometime next year and are likely "only" value products. There's pretty much nothing to talk about from those IHVs (SIS and Trident come to mind, even though there are more mystery chips in development), almost nothing is known about their products, not even little bits of leaked info. This currently reduces this round to two players, and I can understand everyone who says he wants to see what both ATI and Nvidia have to offer before making a purchasing decision, ati has played their Ace, now everybody wants to see what Nvidia has up its sleeve...
 
If the 9700 isn't fast enough for you, then you'll just have to wait for the NV30, which should be >20% faster given 400MHz GPU/450+MHz 256-bit DDRII. Obviously, there'll always be something faster a few months away. If nVidia isn't using a new FSAA or AF method, it's conceivable that an upclocked 0.13u R300 with DDRII may be faster than an NV30 with HRAA+AF, so you could wait for that. Of course, the NV35 will probably be still faster a few months later.

It's a vicious, but graphically breathtaking, cycle. :D
 
Hrm, I thought I made a post here earlier, no matter.

Anyway, here are my thoughts on whether or not to buy the 9700:

1. If you wait, there's always something better. Therefore, how much do you want to upgrade right now? I wouldn't upgrade if you're happy with your current card.

2. Stability. I would definitely suggest anybody wait a few weeks after the card ships to consumers to find out from forums like this one just how good the drivers and stability of the card are. Only pre-order if you really like to try out the latest-and-greatest, and have lots of money to burn.

3. Price. If you have the money now, go for it. Otherwise, wait until a more cost-effective DX9 card is available.

Me, I'm not upgrading for the simple reason that I just got a Ti 4200, don't have the money for a new video card, and my CPU is next in line for an upgrade.
 
Qroach said:
Let me ask it again. is a radeon 8500 or Geforce 4 more than fast enough for everysingle game on the market? It's perfectly fast enough for games like morrowind and serious sam.

No.

Running SS:SE with max eyecandy is not fast/smooth enough. I'm talking 1600x1200@32bit+AF+AA. Perhaps its my old cpu, AMD Thunderbird @1.6Ghz, thats holding it back, but it seems like its vid-card related at those settings.

I also doubt its fast enough to be running at HD-TV 1080i resolutions as well. I haven't hooked it up to the 61" RCA HDTV, considering I haven't picked up the ATI-HDTV-dongle yet. That would be near gaming utopia!

--|BRiT|
 
NV30 worth the wait?

NV30 worth the wait?
---------------------------

not for me ..neither the Nv30 or the Radeon 9700 ..

because i already have a very fast video card
im going to wait for next year Fastest card...

my Geforce4 ti400 + AtlonXp 1900+ ..plays all latest games very easily at 1600x1200 all high details.. AF on.. :)

Ghostrecon,MOH,quake3,jediknightII,RTCW,Tribes2,UnrealT
and more ,plays well in my system setup..
except for UT2K3b game(highly recommended) ... ups shhhhh!
that plays very well at 1280x1024 all high!!!

so.. NV30 worth the wait?
Not for me.. .and not for people who doesnt have a
Need to spend another $300-$400 for a video card.. when his PC plays
everything fine. :)
(unless you are rich and have plenty of cash to buy at will of course)

and Yes is worth the wait for people who needs and upgrade
still playing with Geforce1/2/3or mx's or radeons1/2 cads.

if you like ATI and you cant wait for Nv30 then I see no reason to not buy the radeon9700 if you have the cash.
but if you can wait / theres nothing wrong about buying the Nv30 too.

the Nv30 is going to be faster that radeon9700 , everyone
with common sense will expect that.
because almost every new high performance level card (not value)outperform the current video cards on the market . the more law.
and there is no sense to Nvidia to release a card to compete with ATI Radeon9700 ,that do not competes at all.... DOH!

so expect Nv30 be faster than radeon9700 and RAdeon1000 faster
than Nv30 and Nv35 faster than anyother and so on..

ATI have done a great Job with the Radeon9700 ,i agree ,so
dont feel desperately because Nv30 is in the way..
there is plenty of Room in the gaming market for competition ,
so unless a company DELAYS a product for more than 1 year (ala 3dfx)
and they stop bringing quality products to the MARKET.
there should be NO REASON to Worry about Nvidia or ATI going out of business anytime sooner because a product SALES are not as good
as they thought.
 
I have to admit that the thought of playing UT2003 at 1280x960 with 16x AF and 4x AA sounds mighty tempting for this fall. Personally, my sense of logic says wait: NV30 might be the better part, and even if it isn't the waiting will have seen the 9700's drivers mature and its price drop (hopefully a little).
 
The Radeon 9700 looks like it will be a very nice video card. However, I can only see two reasons you would not think it's worth waiting to see what the NV30 is like before making your decision. One reason is that you feel you need to upgrade your video card before you think the NV30 will be released. The other is that you refuse to buy a NVIDIA product for whatever reason. Of course, I'm sure there are also people who think it will be worth waiting for the NV30 simply because they refuse to buy an ATI product for whatever reason.

Personally, it is worth the wait for me, but not because I think the Radeon 9700 is bad. I don't plan on upgrading before the end of the year anyway, so it's not even an issue really. Also, there are only two games in development that I want to play which will require me to upgrade my video card. They are Deus Ex 2 and Thief 3. Neither of them will be released before the end of the year, and both of them will require a beefy system to run well with all the goodies turned on. That being the case, it only makes sense to wait and see what the best card for them will be before making a decision.
 
Unreal 2003 isn't out yet so don't bother using that as an example.

For me it is :) But I am one of the lucky ones and yes its too slow on my 8500 ATM. Also SS:SE Extreme settings at 1280x1024 is at a whopping 38 fps and like someone said I am sure that all due to my slow 2100 XP processor :)

Fact is there are a lot of games that can kill framerates today. Older games like Q3 no, but lots of others...
 
As I'm the one who mentioned UT2003 first I asssume this is aimed at me.

Lets take a look at what you said.

Qroach said:
Unreal 2003 isn't out yet so don't bother using that as an example. ...

Ut2003 - will be out by the time R300/NV30 are out, so yes it is worth mentioning. Anyway havent you played it yet ;)

Qroach said:
If you want to go by the faster is better moto, then you're going to look pretty stupid in this argument if Nv30 is faster than the R300, and I'm willing to be that it is...

Huh? Where did I mention I would be rushing to get an R300? You're the one who said 8500/gf4 are fast enough. If anyone is looking stupid right now...
 
John Reynolds said:
I have to admit that the thought of playing UT2003 at 1280x960 with 16x AF and 4x AA sounds mighty tempting for this fall. Personally, my sense of logic says wait: NV30 might be the better part, and even if it isn't the waiting will have seen the 9700's drivers mature and its price drop (hopefully a little).

ooh John haven't we agreed on this elsewhere :D ? It does depend for me how well UT does scale to my rig (8500/XP1600/640meg DDRAM).
 
Ut2003 - will be out by the time R300/NV30 are out, so yes it is worth mentioning. Anyway havent you played it yet

I said todays's games, not the games coming 4 months from now or who knows when. I can't go out and purchase UT2003 right now can i? No. How finshed is the game? and your alreayd talking about it's performance? that's just my point. How do you know hte game isn't CPU limited like the last UT?

Huh? Where did I mention I would be rushing to get an R300? You're the one who said 8500/gf4 are fast enough. If anyone is looking stupid right now...

That sentance wasn't targetted at you, it was for what geek mentioned. actually the entire post was targetted at geek, since I thought he'd start using UT 2003 in his argument.
 
Whilst the R300 is a good product and is a known quantity, we know it's definately in existence and will be arriving soon, I don't want to be one of the guinea pigs who fork out three to four hundred bucks for the first generation. I would prefer to wait and let the drivers settle and for the hardware to be fully tested in a real world scenario.

By that time the NV30 might be with us and that'll give the added bonus of having two cards in the same generation and class to compare. It also means that I won't rush out and buy an NV30 until that's had time to mature as well.
 
Qroach said:
I said todays's games, not the games coming 4 months from now or who knows when. I can't go out and purchase UT2003 right now can i? No. How finshed is the game? and your alreayd talking about it's performance? that's just my point. How do you know hte game isn't CPU limited like the last UT?

well you cant get an NV30/R300 yet either and UT2003 is only a month or so away. Circular arguement though so lets drop it.

Anands tests show it is GPU limited so far when the detail/rez start to increase.

Qroach said:
That sentance wasn't targetted at you, it was for what geek mentioned. actually the entire post was targetted at geek, since I thought he'd start using UT 2003 in his argument.

Sorry my bad, was surprised if it was aimed at me.
 
Randell,

well you cant get an NV30/R300 yet either and UT2003 is only a month or so away. Circular arguement though so lets drop it.

I know that, that's why I've been saying current games on the market don't stress current hardware enough to warrent purchasing the new cards. I didn't say that NV30 or R300 can be purchased yet, that was just my point.

I'm arguing against the people that are saying "Don't wait for a NV30, go out an buy a Radeon 9700 right now because it's the current best". I'm playing the devils advocate here by saying there isn't any real reason to purchase the new cards YET since there's nothing that really stresses current cards enough. So you might as well "wait" and see what all the competition has to offer so you can get the most value for you money.

Not only that, but using benchmark numbers from a unfinshed product doesn't make sense imo. You decided to bring in a unfinshed, unreleased game into the conversation ;)
 
Morrowind runs unacceptably slow with all details on.
Radeon 8500 o'c AthlonXP 1600@1900.

It is not fast enough for current games already.
 
Qroach,

try SS:SE on the extreme settings and enjoy the sub 50 frame rate :( Now I did not say its worth it. But that is one real game out today that can cripple even the high end systems.
 
I don't know, I've heard quite the opposite things regarding Morrowind. some people claim it runs fine with all details and others don't. Perhaps there's some sort of performance differnce between the 8500, ad GF4 with this game? I'm not really certain.

Perhaps serious sam runs poorly on some machines depening on the settings/hardware, but that's only 1 game and can you really say it's stressing the hardware? When I mean "stressing", I don't just mean at high resoloutions, I'm talking about enough geometry/textures/etc... detail to stress a card at realitvely low resoloutions.
 
Qroach said:
I'm arguing against the people that are saying "Don't wait for a NV30, go out an buy a Radeon 9700 right now because it's the current best". I'm playing the devils advocate here by saying there isn't any real reason to purchase the new cards YET since there's nothing that really stresses current cards enough. So you might as well "wait" and see what all the competition has to offer so you can get the most value for you money.

Not only that, but using benchmark numbers from a unfinshed product doesn't make sense imo. You decided to bring in a unfinshed, unreleased game into the conversation ;)

Ok Ok I get your point :) I still disagree to not needing more pwoer now if you cna get it. Although I will wait into 2003, many games on my system are unplayable above 2xAA/16xAF on my system or even with 2xAA. SS:SE has been mentioned many times in this thread as has Morrowind. GTA3 fairs badly with as well with AA on my system. Going back what kind of frame rates does Giants or Sacrifice pull at 12x10, 4xAA and 8x AF on a Gf4? I'd be surprised if they were totally smooth.
 
Qroach said:
I don't know, I've heard quite the opposite things regarding Morrowind. some people claim it runs fine with all details and others don't. Perhaps there's some sort of performance differnce between the 8500, ad GF4 with this game? I'm not really certain.

I think it runs fine on my GeForce4, but that doesn't mean it runs well.

The framerate in no way hurts gameplay, it just isn't as nice as it could be.
 
I think people should chill about this dispute. For me, and I suppose for many people as well, these silly pissing contests which are born along each new generation of vid-cards have become quite boring. Be it Nam NG vs the world or DT sucking ATI`s tool and cutting nVidia`s, they have all become incredibly dull. The same crappy arguments and reasons for getting or not getting a new card from either company. The average Joe Doe with mucho dinero WILL certainly get the fastest thing available. That much is clear. The fanboys will also shell the bucks, but only on their favourite company`s pet. BUT the people that make the sales, the medium pocket buyers, will wait to see what is best to throw their hard earned money, because their purpose is to get the best thing at a good price. In my experience with upgrades, I have come to the conclusion that it never pays off to buy new cards as soon as they hit the fan. If you are patient, the prices will go down in quite a short time, and this will always happen as long as there are at least two players in the game. In this situation- if a wait for the nv30 and it is indeed 20-30% faster than R9700, I`m sure to get a good deal on the ATI card, just like people who waited got on the R8500. Sure, if I have the money I may buy the faster part, but at least I will have a choice. Shouldn`t you give yourselves` time to think and choose what best suits you :-?
 
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