Recent events: NV30 worth the wait?

[Oats]

nVidia for the first time in a long time seems to be seriously threathen, they don't have a product which can compete with ATi. ATi's part seems like a great upgrade whatever the card you presently own. It's obvious that if nVidia is going to be selling any of their NV30s they need to "convince" people to wait for it. From their recent behavior, I am starting to doubbt their next part is worth the wait.

Since the R300 has been announced what did we get from nVidia? We got some PR docs on the "capabilites" of their shader engines; yes, they are more flexible than ATi's. We had PR bashing the "competition", read ATi. We had Anand's "objective" remarks. We had some quotes from Carmack, that we can't trace when or in which context their were made. Do these actions seem like the actions of a confident nVidia? There are 2 confident stances that could have been adopted: come out with the specs or STFU, like they used to do. The latter one would have been risky, ATi has a very strong product and their's is quite a ways off, but better than this weak PR bashing. They needed to come out with the specs and say: "Look it's going to kick some ass, wait for it". Seems they couldn't. They couldn't, IMO, because they don't have the product to do so. Their product will be more flexible, but it will be slower than ATi's (or it could simply seem slower from the specs, but I doubt their chip is more efficient than ATi's).

nVidia seems desperate to me. Do you guys agree? Is it worth the wait for the NV30 just in the hopes of a better deal on the R300? Or is the increased flexibility important enough to wait?

********
Stuff in italics was edited and changed the title to reflect mroe closely the poll.

 

[Guest]

Re: Recent events: can nVidia overtake ATi?

nVidia for the first time in a long time seems to be seriously threathen, they don't have a product which can compete with ATi. ATi's part seems like a great upgrade whatever the card you presently own. It's obvious that if nVidia is going to be selling any of their NV30s they need to "convince" people to wait for it. From their recent behavior, I am starting to doubbt their next part is worth the wait.

Since the R300 has been announced what did we get from nVidia? We got some PR docs on the "capabilites" of their shader engines; yes, they are more flexible than ATi's. We had PR bashing the "competition", read ATi. We had Anand's "objective" remarks. We had some quotes from Carmack, that we can't trace when or in which context their were made. Do these actions seem like the actions of a confident nVidia? There are 2 confident stances that could have been adopted: come out with the specs or STFU, like they used to do. The latter one would have been risky, ATi has a very strong product and their's is quite a ways off, but better than this weak PR bashing. They needed to come out with the specs and say: "Look it's going to kick some ass, wait for it". Seems they couldn't. They couldn't, IMO, because they don't have the product to do so. Their product will be more flexible, but it will be slower than ATi's (or it could simply seem slower from the specs, but I doubt their chip is more efficient than ATi's).

nVidia seems desperate to me. Do you guys agree? Is it worth the wait for the NV30 just in the hopes of a better deal on the R300?

Exactly....

OT : I expect this will be yet "another log" for the flames... 8)

 

[Guest]

ATi comes out with a chip that beats nvidia hands down and all the people can do here is talk about vapourware...... and speculate on how great it WILL be when ever that is. Unbelievable that they would rather speculate about what the nv30 could be/might be then what exists. Nvidia is desperatly at this point trying to develope a solution that is better then the Radeon 9700..... only some here will even care to admit it. There is becoming an undertone on this forum bias for nvidia in a big way. To some it is appearent ..... like myself for example. Others just ignore it.. but more and more the bias is showing itself..... Beyond 3D may just become another nvidia fan site?? The tone here has changed in a strange way.... not so unbias as it used to be.

 

[Mulciber]

ATi comes out with a chip that beats nvidia hands down and all the people can do here is talk about vapourware...... and speculate on how great it WILL be when ever that is. Unbelievable that they would rather speculate about what the nv30 could be/might be then what exists. Nvidia is desperatly at this point trying to develope a solution that is better then the Radeon 9700..... only some here will even care to admit it. There is becoming an undertone on this forum bias for nvidia in a big way. To some it is appearent ..... like myself for example. Others just ignore it.. but more and more the bias is showing itself..... Beyond 3D may just become another nvidia fan site?? The tone here has changed in a strange way.... not so unbias as it used to be.

Im sorry, isnt this what we always do?

 

[Guest]

ATi comes out with a chip that beats nvidia hands down and all the people can do here is talk about vapourware...... and speculate on how great it WILL be when ever that is. Unbelievable that they would rather speculate about what the nv30 could be/might be then what exists. Nvidia is desperatly at this point trying to develope a solution that is better then the Radeon 9700..... only some here will even care to admit it. There is becoming an undertone on this forum bias for nvidia in a big way. To some it is appearent ..... like myself for example. Others just ignore it.. but more and more the bias is showing itself..... Beyond 3D may just become another nvidia fan site?? The tone here has changed in a strange way.... not so unbias as it used to be.

Im sorry, isnt this what we always do?

Really? When the geforce 4 was released I don't remmember an overwhelming amount of talk about the R300 solution from ATI??!!

 

[Richthofen]

while arguing against nvidia fanboys you seem to me like an
ATI fanboy.
This whole thread will end in another stupid flamewar.
For what do we need to know how many people are going to wait?

What is wrong if people want to wait?
Nothing. I will do so and the majority will do so because of good reasons.
If NV30 is slower people still can buy a R300. If it is faster they can buy a NV30 or a cheaper R300.

That is clever and not stupid.
I don't buy ATI or PowerVR or whatever because they have a good product and need some support because of their underdog position.
I will buy what is best around the end of the year thats all.

 

[Guest]

while arguing against nvidia fanboys you seem to me like an
ATI <bleep>..

well I have taken that slant don't pretend to deny it but I used to like nvidia.

What is wrong if people want to wait?
Nothing. I will do so and the majority will do so because of good reasons.
If NV30 is slower people still can buy a R300. If it is faster they can buy a NV30 or a cheaper R300..

Yeah can' t argue much against the waiting thing being "smart" but if one were to do that they would be perpetually waiting for the next best thing. I am just saying that the Radeon 9700 is real, the nv30 is still in the workshop...... who knows when this card is comming?? (Exact Date please...)

That is clever and not stupid.
I don't buy ATI or PowerVR or whatever because they have a good product and need some support because of their underdog position.
I will buy what is best around the end of the year thats all.

Well the nv30 is supposed to be launched by just then funny that. (no specific date though, I suspect it won't be shipping in volume untill next year though, of course nvidia would like you to wait till just then for you to decide.) If the nv30 is shipping in volume before the end of the year I will be very surprised. But that is the message from nvidias CEO supposedly, although they don't support that claim offically.

 

[RussSchultz]

I seem to have forgetten when the 9700 will hit stores. Could you tell me an exact date so I can be the first in line?

 

[Crusher]

You can sign up for an e-mail list on ATI's website, and they will give you pre-order information when it becomes available. Apparently you have to pre-order your pre-order.

 

[RussSchultz]

Just an off topic FYI, http://www.enpc.com/cgi-bin/enpc/ATIR9700BOX.html has the ETA listed at mid-October.

Hows that for a concrete product with an exact release date?

 

[Qroach]

For one thing the Radeon 9700 is NOT in stores yet, so as far as I'm concerned it too is "vaporware" until I can purchase it and use it.

Second, what's wrong here? Are you not seeing the response you wanted to see? Well, no need to answer that question, because I can tell what the answer will be.

let's put it this way (an argument I've seen used against other new video cards in the past).

Does anyone really need a Radeon 9700 at this point? Isn't a Geforce 4 and 8500 fast enough for every single game currently on the market? Is there such a big difference between 150 and 250 frames per second that you would see the benefits of using a 9700 at all? When the 9700 is released (whenever that is) Dx9 won't even be ready for the public. So, is it such a bad thing to wait until other competing products are out FIRST so you can properly gauge what the most value for your money is?

 

[Guest]

I seem to have forgetten when the 9700 will hit stores. Could you tell me an exact date so I can be the first in line?

All I know is that it is supposed to be available one month after the launch date.. BTW that is a hell of a lot better then when the nv30 is rumored to be launched. Try pre ordering a pre order of that product.. I would hate to see you guys waiting still in a few months for the nv30.. saying where is my nv30? But here ya go Mr. Schultz http://apps.ati.com/preorder/... post your benchmarks when you get it would ya.

 

[Guest]

For one thing the Radeon 9700 is NOT in stores yet, so as far as I'm concerned it too is "vaporware" until I can purchase it and use it.

My God man they just launched it. Relax.

Second, what's wrong here? Are you not seeing the response you wanted to see? Well, no need to answer that question, because I can tell what the answer will be.

Hrm well you could wait for me to actually read and respond... you sure are hyper... take ten deep breaths and scrunch your shoulders to your ears while doing them... there that feels better I bet.

let's put it this way (an argument I've seen used against other new video cards in the past).

Does anyone really need a Radeon 9700 at this point? Isn't a Geforce 4 and 8500 fast enough for every single game currently on the market? Is there such a big difference between 150 and 250 frames per second that you would see the benefits of using a 9700 at all? When the 9700 is released (whenever that is) Dx9 won't even be ready for the public. So, is it such a bad thing to wait until other competing products are out FIRST so you can properly gauge what the most value for your money is?

For Gods sake........ I thought "frame rate is life" was the moto of the average gamer. Now the Radeon 9700 is bitch slapping the nv25 and possibly the nv30, for all we know they have all revised that ideal? I doubt it. ATI should be congradulated in everyway for providing the first DX 9 part not to mention the fastest hardware available not the other way around. Come on..!?

 

[Randell]

Isn't a Geforce 4 and 8500 fast enough for every single game currently on the market? Is there such a big difference between 150 and 250 frames per second that you would see the benefits of using a 9700 at all?

have you seen the perfromance of these cards in SS:SE with AA and AF? What about UT2003 with AA+AF? There are probably other games out there (Morrowind) that I dont own as well where these cards are not fast enough.

 

[Guest]

Isn't a Geforce 4 and 8500 fast enough for every single game currently on the market? Is there such a big difference between 150 and 250 frames per second that you would see the benefits of using a 9700 at all?

have you seen the perfromance of these cards in SS:SE with AA and AF? What about UT2003 with AA+AF? There are probably other games out there (Morrowind) that I dont own as well where these cards are not fast enough.

Yeah you should see how bad Marrowind looks on my Xbox... yuk. I am unsure if it is the software or the hardware but all I know is that its choppy. Very disapointing really. BTW the xbox has the nv20/25 for its xgpu.

 

[Qroach]

My God man they just launched it. Relax.

Yes they DID just launch it, and btw it's not me that's getting ahead of themselves here. You're making it sound like the 9700 is in stores, when it too is vaporware at this point. So just "relax" back at ya.

Now the Radeon 9700 is bitch slapping the nv25 and possibly the nv30, for all we know they have all revised that ideal? I doubt it.

As usual in arguments like yours, the person that responded doesn't bother to respond to the questions... Let me ask it again. is a radeon 8500 or Geforce 4 more than fast enough for everysingle game on the market? It's perfectly fast enough for games like morrowind and serious sam.

ATI should be congradulated in everyway for providing the first DX 9 part not to mention the fastest hardware available not the other way around. Come on..!?

...and they haven't been congratulated? eve still what does that have to do with someone that's interested and wating to see if they really ARE the fastest? if that even matters withe games currently out there and how fast current cards are.

 

[Qroach]

Unreal 2003 isn't out yet so don't bother using that as an example. If you want to go by the faster is better moto, then you're going to look pretty stupid in this argument if Nv30 is faster than the R300, and I'm willing to be that it is...

 

[Guest]

My God man they just launched it. Relax.

Yes they DID just launch it, and btw it's not me that's getting ahead of themselves here. You're making it sound like the 9700 is in stores, when it too is vaporware at this point. So just "relax" back at ya.

Now the Radeon 9700 is bitch slapping the nv25 and possibly the nv30, for all we know they have all revised that ideal? I doubt it.

As usual in arguments like yours, the person that responded doesn't bother to respond to the questions... Let me ask it again. is a radeon 8500 or Geforce 4 more than fast enough for everysingle game on the market? It's perfectly fast enough for games like morrowind and serious sam.

ATI should be congradulated in everyway for providing the first DX 9 part not to mention the fastest hardware available not the other way around. Come on..!?

...and they haven't been congratulated? eve still what does that have to do with someone that's interested and wating to see if they really ARE the fastest? if that even matters withe games currently out there and how fast current cards are.

Well all I know is that it is available for preorder and it performes very well. I am more "excited" about real hardware that exists rather then the vapourware the nv30 is. Again here is the pre order link if you are interested. http://apps.ati.com/preorder/...

Hrm I think personally 60 fps is minimum framerate that I would like to see. But I want it with all the bells and whistles as well.

edit: pic just too big... good night all, have fun.


Anyhow that is a matter of taste when it comes down to it. Like I said earlier my xbox is very disapointing with Marrowind and it is supposed to have the same pologon performance of the geforce 4 ti 4400 so..

Yeah they were congradulated @ the launch date but you would expect some respect for what they have done... but all I see is nv30 speculation and how much better it will be and so on... even though the rumored launch date is not officially recognised. Anyhow my old lady needs me so my play time is over... Cheers ...

 

[Gunhead]

Geek_2002, Xbox uses NV2A which among other differences has a less optimised dual vertex shader than NV25 has, and at 233 MHz runs at slower clock than any Geforce 4 (Ti). So Morrowind may well look better on a PC with a fast CPU than on the Xbox; haven't tried either way myself, though.

 

[KimB]

From what I've seen, the X-Box version has the same graphics, and is considered to run fairly slow.

It will be nice when I finally have a PC that can run Morrowind at good framerates (*crosses fingers for it to happen this winter*).