Next gen lighting technologies - voxelised, traced, and everything else *spawn*

[DavidGraham]

The Tomorrow Children

The Tomorrow Children is nowhere near as complex or graphically advanced as Metro.

Also, if you show just the RTX screenshots, nobody would be impressed

I can say that about 90% of the graphical effects. Including the compute GI solutions that you so highly regard.
And no, a trained eye will spot the indirect lighting immediately and be impressed with it.
We are literally into the stage of denial here, where people are manufacturing excuses to hate on or downplay ray tracing.

 

[London Geezer]

muted difference?

Again. If the RTX ON or RTX OFF weren’t there (I had to check) then I wouldn’t know which is which, except one is darker and one is brighter, which can be easily done in other ways. Meh.

 

[DavidGraham]

except one is darker and one is brighter, which can be easily done in other ways. Meh.

Do dynamic GI on moving objects easily with other ways? I am curious to know about them!

 

[London Geezer]

Do dynamic GI on moving objects easily with other ways? I am curious to know about them!

1. They’re screenshots.
2. Even in the video it was hard (or impossible) to tell how dynamic it was half the time.

 

[vipa899]

The Tomorrow Children has a much more advanced lighting model

Then why does it look like ass? The only good thing with that game is it (was) free a while ago. And for good reasons perhaps.

Both GI and AO is a bit of an ungrateful use of RTX, because it's low frequency. Sharp reflections are just more impressive an easier to sell (but not more important IMHO).

This comment is very telling, from now on i read your opinions with a different perspective.

I wonder, if you guys dont like or even hate the new render tech or how its used in those games for rtx, how you get by playing all games without it, on i think hardware that doesnt even lift this metro game above low settings for the most?

 

[vipa899]

Again. If the RTX ON or RTX OFF weren’t there (I had to check) then I wouldn’t know which is which, except one is darker and one is brighter, which can be easily done in other ways. Meh.

DF didnt share your view, they commented the diff between the console versions and rtx to be on another level. Lazy devs?

 

[DavidGraham]

1. They’re screenshots.

Even with just the screenshots the difference is night and day. If I played the game with RTX on then came back to play it with RTX off, I will IMMEDIATELY tell that my experience has been downgraded.

And no, even without RTX on, many people have already noticed that RTX off is missing many indirect lighting information. I would easily classify this scene as wrong and unrealistic, as well as ugly:

 

[milk]

muted difference?

This first pair of pictures looks like a bad exemple to me though. The main difference there seems to be the strength of the SUN DIRECT LIGHT, which has nothing to do with RTX or with GI. It was probably a result of dynamic cloud shadows being out of sync between those two screens.

 

[London Geezer]

Even with just the screenshots the difference is night and day. If I played the game with RTX on then came back to play it with RTX off, I will IMMEDIATELY tell that my experience has been downgraded.

And no, even without RTX on, many people have already noticed that RTX off is missing many indirect lighting information. I would easily classify this scene as wrong and unrealistic, as well as ugly:

I’m sure it’s much better when actually played in person.

Again, I have no emotional attachment to certain graphic options or lack thereof. Even the notion of that is hilarious.

All I have been saying is that it’s not super evident a lot of the time to my own pretty eyes. And even the videos you guys have linked to have mentioned that it can ve very subtle a lot of the time. That’s all!

I’d be absolutely thrilled if RT tech (or equivalent) makes it into next gen hardware and I’m sure that in a year or two the results will be a lot less subtle.

It’s really nothing personal. I hate flat lighting in games as much as I hate doing legs at the gym. That’s a lot.

 

[DavidGraham]

It’s really nothing personal. I hate flat lighting in games as much as I hate doing legs at the gym. That’s a lot.

I second that till the end of time ..

 

[milk]

And just to repeat my point, RTX here makes AO MUCH BETTER, but actual BOUNCE LIGHT is not necessarily better. It's different. RTX bounce light is more spacially precise, but it does one bounce, which is a gross aproximation, very far from "physically based" or "just works". That's not just a detail, it's a major flaw, the benchmark makes it obvious by how dark small shadows look. Shadows are not that dark in an open areas during the day, because bounced light comes from all over, but since this game can only do one bounce, these areas are getting a meagre fraction of the light they would be receiving. This IS NOT "light behaving as it should in the real world" as some are saying.
To do this right, they should have re-baked a second set of lightprobes for the entire game where they ignored the first bounce of light but still captured the second ones and onwards. That would have made the RTX GI version the best of both worlds. As it is now, RTX is not ultimately better than the traditional, it has different trade-offs.

Still a milestone in real-time graphics, and another great start for RTX as a technological test-bed. The flaws I mention don't make the technical accomplishment any less impressive or important for the evolution of graphics. It is a mighty impressive feat to pull off a real-time approximation of dynamic GI using Ray Tracing. In fact, dynamic GI is such a hard problem, any new practical real time solution is always interesting regardless of the limitations.

But don't delude yourself or other in that this game is simulating light how it is supposed to be. It's still a far cry from that.

 

[DavidGraham]

This one looks like a bad exemple to me though. The main difference there seems to be the strength of the SUN DIRECT light, which has nothing to do with RTX or with GI. It was probably a result of dynamic cloud shadows being out of sync between those two shadows.

The capture is from the same run though, RTX can be disabled or enabled on the fly. Meaning cloud position didn't change during the scene capture.
That being said, I will run the game tonight on my 2080Ti and see if there is any cloud in the scene or not.

 

[vipa899]

I’d be absolutely thrilled if RT tech (or equivalent) makes it into next gen

God help us if it doesnt
Halo infinite seems a sign it does for MS, game is being developed with pc in mind though.

Again, I have no emotional attachment to certain graphic options or lack thereof.

You dont but ppl who the whole discount RT(X) just because of one title gives another sign. Then comparing it to some game that has minecraft graphics...

Its way too early to negate the new tech, i think. More and more examples are coming each with their own solutions. For bolted on tech its not that bad.

 

[JoeJ]

We are literally into the stage of denial here, where people are manufacturing excuses to hate on or downplay ray tracing.

Totally not - i could just say it the other way around as well. (And notice i did non mention my personal opinion at all.)
All we can do is trying to understand WHY opinions differ, which is quite easy here.
What do you find more impressive? BFV or Metro? And what do you think an 'untrained eye' would say?

 

[London Geezer]

God help us if it doesnt
Halo infinite seems a sign it does for MS, game is being developed with pc in mind though.



You dont but ppl who the whole discount RT(X) just because of one title gives another sign. Then comparing it to some game that has minecraft graphics...

Its way too early to negate the new tech, i think. More and more examples are coming each with their own solutions. For bolted on tech its not that bad.

We’re not negating it.

It is however completely natural that people (like me) who have been reading and hearing about this supposedly game and life-changing new tech might react with concern when the actual results need very careful examination, and are subtle as hell a lot of the time.

My reaction isn’t a “fuck this I don’t want RT”, it’s simply a “give me more, this is lame”.

Personally I just don’t think Metro looks all that great to begin with. RT or not.

 

[vipa899]

What do you find more impressive? BFV or Metro? And what do you think an 'untrained eye' would say?

You really cant compare two different titles, they are going for totally different styles. Dice imo is a better dev, not saying that because their swedish.
Ive never been rlly impressed with any metro game, could be style. They have some nice tech though.

 

[vipa899]

it’s simply a “give me more, this is lame”.

Things will get even more thrilling once MS starts implementing it in their pc versions (at the least) of next gen games, and titles like atomic heart, looks allready impressive now.

 

[JoeJ]

Then why does it look like ass? The only good thing with that game is it (was) free a while ago. And for good reasons perhaps.



This comment is very telling, from now on i read your opinions with a different perspective.

I wonder, if you guys dont like or even hate the new render tech or how its used in those games for rtx, how you get by playing all games without it, on i think hardware that doesnt even lift this metro game above low settings for the most?

TTC looks very good if you like the artstyle. It has the most advanced and complete dynamic lighting model in a AAA game i'm aware about.

How is my comment telling? You just get me wrong.
AO and GI IS subtle. There is no discussion about that. It's subtle in comparison to BFV reflections, it's subtle in comparision to SS alternatives. People hardly recognize because of that.
So i do not downplay RT here, no, i defend it!
I try to explain why many people are not that impressed maybe.

Other critique like mentioning the restriction of GI to outdoors is totally justified i think. TTC does better here, although i do not think voxels are better than triangles. Raytraced are both of them.
It's also justified when people say that's not what was promised form Robot or Star Wars demo. You just have to deal with it.

 

[vipa899]

It's also justified when people say that's not what was promised form Robot or Star Wars demo. You just have to deal with it.

Those demos arent using bolted on tech though.

TTC looks very good if you like the artstyle. It has the most advanced and complete dynamic lighting model in a AAA game i'm aware about.

Artstyle doesnt affect my view by much, TTC just isnt even close to Q2 done by a single developer.
Imagine what a whole team with a big budget can do, with similar gfx as ttc or q2 with rt hardware.

 

[JoeJ]

TTC just isnt even close to Q2 done by a single developer.

Agree to that. Q2 is best, only Minecraft beats it.

But this is not a single developer, he's part of NV research and works in a team. They showed Q2 demo in research papers long before releasing the demo. It is thus one result of 10 years NV expertise in RT, not something one guy did easily for fun in a weekend.