R200 & RV250 to kick NV25 in next years games ?

[Doomtrooper]

 

[Evildeus]

From the Online price of France, and thinking that 100€ is the maximum you want to put in a video card, the Ati 7500 is the one that just enable that, not by much.

I think we will need to wait much time and price drop before DX8 cards become a minimum standard.

Online price in France:
-GF4 TI 4200 64 Mo sub 196€ minimum
http://www.presencepc.com/prix/cat.php?id=1&f=nVIDIA+GeForce4+Ti4200
-GF4 MX 460 175€ minimum
http://www.presencepc.com/prix/cat.php?id=1&f=nVIDIA+GeForce4+MX460
-GF4 MX 440 119€ minimum
http://www.presencepc.com/prix/cat.php?id=1&f=nVIDIA+GeForce4+MX440
-GF3 TI 200 139€ minimum
http://www.presencepc.com/prix/cat.php?id=1&f=nVIDIA+GeForce+3+Ti+200
-ATI 8500LE 149€ Minimum
http://www.presencepc.com/prix/cat.php?id=1&f=ATi+Radeon+8500LE
-ATI 7500 95€ Minimum
http://www.presencepc.com/prix/cat.php?id=1&f=ATi+Radeon+7500

 

[Geeforcer]

The Geforce 3 Ti 200 is not a value part Skywalker, the Geforce 4 MX is and of course it doesn't SUPPORT Pixel Shaders.

Really? And there I was thinking that PRICE of the product determines whether its a value part or not.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Actually, I agree with Doom that Ti-200 is not a value part. The reason the price is low right now is because resellers are trying to get rid of them, or else be stuck with a bunch of stock.

The Ti-200 is not a viable product at GeForce4 MX prices. The profit margin is not there. How do I know this?

Because if that weren't the case, the GeForce4 MX would not exist. Why would nVidia make the GeForce4 MX line, if the Ti-200 were in fact just as profitbale at "value" price points, while delivering equal or better performance and features?

If you want to know what a "value" part is based on price, you need to look at the price at introduction of the part.

 

[GetStuff]

Since when does the "value" (or lack of) designation stay with a product throughout it's entire lifespan?


I think profitability and value are being confused here. They are both completly different concepts...

 

[Geeforcer]

Actually, I agree with Doom that Ti-200 is not a value part. The reason the price is low right now is because resellers are trying to get rid of them, or else be stuck with a bunch of stock.

The Ti-200 is not a viable product at GeForce4 MX prices. The profit margin is not there. How do I know this?

Because if that weren't the case, the GeForce4 MX would not exist. Why would nVidia make the GeForce4 MX line, if the Ti-200 were in fact just as profitbale at "value" price points, while delivering equal or better performance and features?

If you want to know what a "value" part is based on price, you need to look at the price at introduction of the part.

I am sorry, but this makes no sense whatsoever. I don't know about you Joe, but when I am looking to buy hardware, don't care about companies profit margin or the original introductory price. All I care is what it costs when I buy it and what it delivers when I but it.

Let's see how you "logic" works in other places. Lets say I am thinking about build an Intel-base value system, with a $100-130 dollar CPU. Naturally, the choice would be between a Celeron 1.8GHz and PIV1.7GHz. But wait, what I am thinking? When P4 1.7 was introduced, it was over $500, that disqualified it right there. Even Celeron1.8 was introduced at $159, so I can't use that either. I hope that the general idea is clear right now: products transverse price ranges as they age, and not considering a product as value due to "introductory price" or "profit margin" is ridiculous.

 

[Above]

I thought Beyond3D was for savvy talking about 3D technology not slinging the latest pricewatch update at each other. It is up to individual users to decide if a price suits them or not.
The temporary price on the GF3 Ti200 may look attractive, but it is strictly temporary. The reason is not hard to find; the 4200 uses a chip of very similar design and transistor count and the other card details are very similar. There are two choices: make the GF3 price in line with relative performance and make little or nothing on it, or make the GF4 at very similar material cost and actually make a significant profit.
nvidia decides to update the price segment of the GF2 to the GF4MX standard. It is about price points, then.

 

[Gollum]

Hmmph I'd like to know what 'corner' store you are shopping at ???, I spent 6 months in Germany just 2 years ago and travel there often. I work for a Global company that has a factory in Crailsheim south of Stutgart in Bavaria and never seen German prices that low.

Well I live here and I know that prices are usually not low here, especially for new products we usually pay a high premium over what you people overseas pay. The GF4 Ti4200 is really the first exception I have witnessed in years, a powerfull card based on the currently newest technology at an exceptionally cheap price only weeks after release, that's a first one here (and probably wouldn't have happened without ATI's excellent competition to Nvidia, yay!).

In fact our German counterparts that visit us in Canada usually buy a harddrive or video card while here as our prices are lower and the German mark is at par with Canadian money ??

The Deutsch Mark is dead, long live the Deutsch Mark. Nah, I'm as happy with the Euro as everyone.

Back to the topic, the store around the corner I refer to is this one:
http://www.litec-computer.de/ - you can get the Pixelview GF4-Ti4200 64MB TV-out Retail for 168,00 Euro, for Germany that's a pretty good price for such a product. The ATI / HIS Radeon 8500LXP 64MB DVI, tv-out Retail goes for exactly the same, which I also a good deal IMHO. I admit that this is not quite value yet, but the prices are currently falling like 5 Euro every week, although they'll probably have to stop falling sometime...

Another popular online and offline shop (has shops in like every bigger german town) would be http://www.kmelektronik.de/ - they sell plenty of different Ti4200 models between 180,00 and 210,00 Euro.

Oh, and like I said, the GF4MX460 often goes for ~160,00 Euro, so the Ti4200 is really almost on the same pricelevel. The average MX440 goes for ~120,00 Euro. The MX420 is selling for about 80,00 Euro. The R7500 is about 80,00 Euro too.

If the value segment is really only below 100,00 Euro, then there's not a whole lot of interesting competition going on there right now (Kyro2, R7500 and GF4MX420), of course old R7000s, Kyros or GF2MXs are also still in that market, but they gotta be sold out sometime, hehe. I have a hard time picturing a newly released RV250 really in that segment, but if ATI can pull that off (offer a full DX8.1 card at clearly below 100 Euro), then I'm all for it.

 

[Doomtrooper]

I really enjoyed Germany, every town having its own beer was...refreshing and of course I never turn down a beer

 

[jvd]

well

Doomtrooper come by my house and get me drunk please ... i will pay you gotta buy since i'm only 20...

 

[Joe DeFuria]

I don't know about you Joe, but when I am looking to buy hardware, don't care about companies profit margin or the original introductory price. All I care is what it costs when I buy it and what it delivers when I but it.

Um, don't you care if you can actually buy it, too? The point is, you won't be able to buy a Ti-200 soon, precisely because they can't make money on it at "value" prices. You'll be able to find GeForce4 MXs all over the place though.

So everyone DOES care what the company's profit margins are, because that dictates whether or not they can actually sell the product.

Don't get me wrong...I understand your point. But you don't seem to understand mine. Again, why on earth would nVidia create a brand new "value" chip (GF4 MX) that has less features and performance than an already existing chip (Ti-200). Answer: becuase Ti-200 is not a design that can be sold in the value market.

The value of the Ti-200 has declined due to competition, but the cost to manufacture it has not declined. Thus, it is no longer viable to sell, and hence nVidia discontinues it.

 

[RussSchultz]

You don't know about the cost to manufacture going up or down.

NVIDIA and TSMC have cadres of engineers who's purpose is yield enhancement, i.e. lower cost.

Rationally, you'd have to believe that the GF3 TI 200 is likely to be end of lifed.

However, sometimes you never know. If sales can sell parts and make any return on investment on old engineering, and it doesn't impact other newersales, they just might keep an older product alive.

But, I'd tend to believe the GF3 in general is on the way out.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

You don't know about the cost to manufacture going up or down.

I do know that

1) Ti-200 is a "better chip" than the Geforce4 MX
2) GeForce4 MX is being sold as the value, high volume part, not the Ti-200.

Again, the point is, the Ti-200 is NOT AS CHEAP to manufacture compared to the GeForce4 MX. There really should be no debate about that. Both chips are 0.15 micron, and the Ti-200 has roughly what, 2X the transistors?

I never said the TI-200 cost couldn't drop relative to its introduction. But it certainly hasn't dropped enough for it to become nVidia's value solution.

 

[up]

It would be more interesting to ask about the costs for a G4-Ti4200...

What a bargain, ...and what a loss for N. ?

 

[Geeforcer]

The point is, you won't be able to buy a Ti-200 soon, precisely because they can't make money on it at "value" prices. You'll be able to find GeForce4 MXs all over the place though.

LOL Joe, history is a wonderful thing.

This is where the whole "better chip" and "phasing out" theory falls apart:

We had exactly the same argument when GF2MX came out. When it was released, it cost about the same as Geforce DDR (a $350 card at the time of its release). GF DDR was generally faster then MX, but people used exactly the same arguments you do today: MX is the true value, GF DDR is not profitable at these prices, .22 um process is obsolete, it will be phased out and impossible to get, etc. Well guess what? Today, 2 years later, GF DDR is still readily available today and it still costs about the same as GF2 MX.

 

[Above]

Yes, the Voodoo 5 is listed on Pricewatch also.

 

[pascal]

IIRC Nvidia said they are not fabricating GF3Ti200 chips anymore. Boards manufacturers are using their stocks probably mainly for retail. One day it will end.

Many people are buying this ugly GF4MX, specially with new computers. The bulk of OEM will go with GF4MX

The GF3Ti200 is a fine card.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

This is where the whole "better chip" and "phasing out" theory falls apart:

Um, no it doesn't. How many new systems can you buy with a GeForce2 DDR in it? How many orders is nVidia getting for new GeForce2 DDR chips?

Answer: None.

As "above" said. Heck, I can find a Voodoo Graphics card on price-watch....

I am really not sure what your point is any more. Fact is, Ti-200 is being (or has already been?) discontinued by nvidia. What other proof than that do you need?

GF DDR is still readily available today and it still costs about the same as GF2 MX.

Again, you can find just about anything on proice watch. Try looking at the OEM builders and see what chips they are using. AND FINALLY, SELLING PRICES ARE DICTATED BY MARKET SUPPLY AND DEMAND NOT PRODUCT COST.

Products sitting on the shelf will be sold AT A LOSS if that's what the market demands the price to be in order to make the sale.

 

[Randell]

will people still stop measuring the whole retail market by what is available on US pricewatch!

Youcannot find a brand new Geforce DDR or Voodoo5 in Europe for example.

Whilst no one is arguing whether thy're are great bargains to be had on the Gf3ti200, it is not in Europe anymore in retail stores to any great degree.

I just checked Dabs, one of the UK's biggest online store. Across all manufacturers they currently have 10 in stock. If you look at the online shops for Leadtek etc, they do not mention the Gf3 anymore. The internet is a wonderful thing but it does not govern UK/Europe retail channels and in those channels the Gf3 is already history.

But who needs it when the Gf4Ti4200 is such good value already? Far beyond my expectations. What even one competitor does for price is amazing compared to the last couple of years.

 

[Ailuros]

south of Stutgart in Bavaria

OT:

I figure that's a typo Doom hm?