R200 & RV250 to kick NV25 in next years games ?

[Nappe1]

Yep and this lame ass labelling system for DirectX compliance has got to stop. In the future I hope Microsoft inlcudes ONE Pixel shader revision for all Direct X revisions, i.e DX10 will be PS 3.0. None of thos PS 2.1, 2.2, 2.25

Maybe they will have PS 3.1415926535897932384626433832795 8)

 

[Dave Glue]

The reason those cards get those frame rates is because the engine is DX7, which IMO is disappointing considering what Carmack is doing. I always looked at Epic (which is quite small) as the mini-ID software as they put out some good games that pushed the envelope.

It would be interesting to see everyone's perspective on this, as there's two sides to this argument:

1) The PC gaming industry suffers because games require constant upgrades.

2) The PC gaming industry suffers because games don't push the envelope and demonstrate the newest technology, fueling hardware purchases.

Which is it? Frankly, the underlying technology to me in UT 2003 is irrelevant (not that discussing it is, I realize the purpose of this board. ).

Does it look great? Yes. Will it play smoothly on a wide variety of hardware? Yes, and I consider that a bonus. As has been mentioned before, artistic talent goes a long way in determining how "advanced" your game appears. Give me a DX7 game with good artists over a DX8 game that has poor art (and requires a monster machine to run smoothly). From what I've seen, UT 2003 may be the most attractive PC game until the DX8 engines (Everquest 2, Doom3) hit the market in late2003. Looks great, runs great. That's good...no?

 

[Joe DeFuria]

I'm with Dave Glue on this one.

It's kinda funny. Take ONE person who, say, owns a GeForce2 MX running on a PIII-500. He plays a bunch of games and bitchs and moans at developers for not making their games "scalable" enough to be enjoyed on his machine.

One month later, this SAME person "upgrades" to a P4 3 Ghz and R-300. THEN you can be sure he'll start bitching and moaning about how games don't "take full advantage" of his hardware, and developers aren't pushing the envelope.

I'm glad I'm not a game developer for the PC...they just can't win.

 

[BenSkywalker]

If the Rv250 is $150 US dollar card there is NO EXCUSE for the general DX7 userbase not to upgrade, its not expensive and its readily available.

No excuse, just like you have no excuse to take $150 out of your pocket right now and burn it..... go ahead...... burn it. The Ti200 is already available for less then that, why should the RV250 be seen as a major step up? Because certain effects can be pulled off in a simpler fashion if the developer codes it properly?

In order to play a game, you think people should jump at the oppurtunity to drop $200? For one game? Will Doom3 play on DX7 level hardware? Yep. Will it look a lot better on DX8 hardware? Yep. Is the added visual difference for that one title worth and additional $150 over the $50 price of the game? Not very likely.

If you are completely obsessed with graphics, and don't care that much about games, then I could see how it could become a 'no brain' choice. That isn't the case with most people. I could pick up NeverWinterNights, Morrowind and JediKnightII or a RV250 to replace my DX7 board which gives nigh identical visuals and would allow a slight bump in resolution for the games I've already played through.....

Why spend money on new games when I can play Q3 running 1280x1024x32 4xAA instead of 1280x1024x32 2xAA?

Right now there is no compelling reason to upgrade from a DX7 board for a game. It doesn't look like UT2K3 or U2 will provide that either, it appears that we will have to wait for Doom3 to see the first real exploitation of DX8 level hardware. That ships in '03. How many boards that are superior to the RV250 will be available then? How many of those will cost less then $150? Why spend the money now if you already have a DX7 level board? For demos? The people running DX7 hardware don't need any excuses, they have a list of very real reasons why they don't want to upgrade right now. The people who need an excuse are those who purchase the bleeding edge if anything.

How long since the launch of the GeForce and we are just now starting to see its features regularly implemented in games. There are many reasons to not buy any DX8 board right now, more for not purchasing a RV250 in particular(you can save yourself the cost of a new game going with the Ti200 as one example).

 

[Doomtrooper]

I want a DX8 game with good artwork ....that eliminates all issues.

Years ago when we made the jump to 3D accelleration (anyone remember the game called WARGODS , In big bold red sticker it stated Requires a DirectX 3D accelerator.
Well now the general public has basic 3D acceleration its time to put another sticker (Doom 3 may contain this)..." Optimal visuals and performance with a DX 8.1 card or something like that

I understand not everyone is running top end machines (hey I ran a computer company for 3 years) BUT I also know if the game is good enough people WILL upgrade.

 

[Doomtrooper]

If the Rv250 is $150 US dollar card there is NO EXCUSE for the general DX7 userbase not to upgrade, its not expensive and its readily available.

No excuse, just like you have no excuse to take $150 out of your pocket right now and burn it..... go ahead...... burn it. The Ti200 is already available for less then that, why should the RV250 be seen as a major step up? Because certain effects can be pulled off in a simpler fashion if the developer codes it properly?

The Geforce 3 Ti 200 is not a value part Skywalker, the Geforce 4 MX is and of course it doesn't SUPPORT Pixel Shaders. Nvidia will be stopping production on the Geforce 3 line soon and the only value part on market is a Radeon 7500 or a Geforce 4 MX or both Dx7 cards (the MX doesn't even support bump mapping).
The Rv 250 will come in at the same price as a Geforce MX 460 ( or doesn't this count to you) yet will support Pixel Shaders.
Is that a better value..HELL YA

 

[Randell]

Well now the general public has basic 3D acceleration its time to put another sticker (Doom 3 may contain this)..." Optimal visuals and performance with a DX 8.1 card[/b

well that wont help bearing in mind the gf4mx boxes state it is a DX8.1 accelerator..

 

[Doomtrooper]

Really ??

 

[Tahir2]

Outcast didnt even use 3D acceleration.
That game looked mint when it came out.

Anyway... no one is going to tell me that I have NO EXCUSE to upgrade to DX9 compatible card (NV31 R350 blah blah) in a years time because it is *only* $150 - and I have a R200 blah blah so Im behind the technology currently in development that will mean games released for it will look so much better in a 2 years time.

What a load of crap!

Ask average Joe to compare the gfx in Quake 3 and... Morrowind. Bad example??? Why... one is just barely DX7 the other is DX8 (woo look its got shiny waterey effect).

I bet they wont be able to tell you which one is using an 'advanced' 3D engine and which is not. In fact they may say the opposite as Quake 3 is smooth as silk and Morrowind chucks like a bitch-on-heat in the outdoor scenes.

Yea... so there, Mr 'you have no excuse to not upgrade to RV250 at $150'.

 

[Doomtrooper]

Yes I see Pixel Shaders used for water alot yet I have not seen anyone code a Pixel Shader for cloud effects like the Ocean Screen Saver on a 8500. It looks really good

 

[BenSkywalker]

The Geforce 3 Ti 200 is not a value part Skywalker, the Geforce 4 MX is and of course it doesn't SUPPORT Pixel Shaders.

*blink*

Why don't you just say nVidia doesn't exist and everyone owns ATi's latest and greatest part, since you seem to be under the impression that what you are saying somehow impacts reality.

You can have a Visiontek GeFroce3 Ti200 delivered to your house for less then $85. It does support PixelShaders, its performance is very solid and it costs more then the price of a game less then what the RV250 is supposed to be available for....some day. For that matter, you can pick up a GeForce3 Ti500 for less then $130, GeForce4 Ti 4200 for less then $150, or a R8500 for under $100 that matter.

$150 DX8 board some big breakthrough? Not even close.

 

[Doomtrooper]

Whats the price of a Geforce MX 460 ??? Geforce 3 production has or soon will be stopped, thats nice you can order one now but only until supplies run out but the Rv 250 is competing with the Geforce 4 MX.
I am basing the $150 dollars in CANADIAN funds BTW which would be approx $118 US.
Not to mention the Rv250 will be signifcantly faster and offer more features for the same price.

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2103925,00.html

 

[BenSkywalker]

You ask that people be morons in one sense or another, either that or you are speculating what may happen based on your desires.

Do you expect a person to listen to PR and only cross shops a GF4MX against a RV250(and you think these people will know the difference between supporting pixel shaders?).

All the boards I mentioned are available right now, and many of them are available for less then what you are saying the RV250 will show up at. So, we have to assume that the RV250 will ship, on time, at the price point you are saying and noone else will release a comparable product and the GF3 supplies will have had to completely dry up by that point for the RV250 to be worth getting excited over(you think nV won't move the price of the Ti42/4400?).

The fact is right now you can get a DX8 board delivered for ~$85 US. If you really cared about advancing the installed base of DX8 hardware so games will use it then you would be supporting that as an upgrade option, it is the cheapest option available and it is available right now. Don't try and act like you care about gaming in the slightest if you are so hell bent on promoting your chosen company that refuse to acknowledge that there has been, for some time, a viable DX8 upgrade path that is less expensive then the one you are touting which isn't even out.

Right now, you can upgrade to a DX8 board for ~$85. If ATi had a DX8 part available for $50 then that would certainly be noteworthy.

Edit-

Even if you want to remain a complete zealot you could push the R8500 for less then $100, it is a superior solution to what you are talking about if you are in the least worried about games taking advantage of DX8(as it is both available now, and is available for less then the price you are using for the RV250).

 

[Randell]

In the UK you would be hard pushed to find a cheap Gf3Ti200 or 8500LE for less than £80-£100.

 

[Randell]

Really ??

Yeah I checked the box in PC World once just to see. Take this advert as well;

http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/prod...19wcm9kdWN0X292ZXJ2aWV3&product_uid=32047

Buyer beware

 

[Brent]

I haven't read this whole thread yet, just the first page, so forgive me if this has been mentioned.

Talking about brining pixel shaders to the value market is kind of what the SiS Xabre is all about. From what I hear this chip is CHEAP, it can be integrated or sold as a board REAL cheaply, and with it's support for Pixel shaders brings shaders into a whole nother market looking at the integrated side of things, cause it's real cheap.

IMO once they start making integrated vid chips that support pixel shaders and the like then that will also help get this tech into the hands of more people.

We are just in the infancy of all this, and I myself also want to push forward with Tech and get it out to more people, once that happens then developers may feel more confident about making games wtih better graphics.

 

[Doomtrooper]

Edit-

Even if you want to remain a complete zealot you could push the R8500 for less then $100, it is a superior solution to what you are talking about if you are in the least worried about games taking advantage of DX8(as it is both available now, and is available for less then the price you are using for the RV250).

Even if you want to remain a complete zealot

Why does it have to be cheaper if it offers more speed than a Geforce 4 MX ?? No you can't upgrade to a Geforce 3 Ti 200 for $85, get out of your US blinders, not everyone lives there.

Ti 500 is $531

http://www.ncix.com/canada/productdetail.php?sku=6644&PHPSESSID=e5ee7b7c289d98ecc20d96c0c7092411

Ti 200 is $218

http://www.ncix.com/canada/productdetail.php?sku=7475&PHPSESSID=e5ee7b7c289d98ecc20d96c0c7092411

Gefore 4 MX 460 is $210

http://www.ncix.com/canada/productdetail.php?sku=7683&PHPSESSID=e5ee7b7c289d98ecc20d96c0c7092411

While a Radeon 7500 is $103

http://www.ncix.com/canada/productdetail.php?sku=6536&PHPSESSID=e5ee7b7c289d98ecc20d96c0c7092411

All prices are where I live which matters to me.. Canada

A far cry for a value priced card even now for a Ti500 is still $500.

The GEFORCE 3 IS DISCONTINUED, is that hard for you to understand. If the user base can upgrade to Dx 8.1 by getting them cheap then GREAT, but after the wharehoues dry up all there is for a value part is:

Geforce 4 MX
RV250
Sis Xabre

Not hard to understand....

edit: added Xabre

 

[Doomtrooper]

I haven't read this whole thread yet, just the first page, so forgive me if this has been mentioned.

Talking about brining pixel shaders to the value market is kind of what the SiS Xabre is all about. From what I hear this chip is CHEAP, it can be integrated or sold as a board REAL cheaply, and with it's support for Pixel shaders brings shaders into a whole nother market looking at the integrated side of things, cause it's real cheap.

IMO once they start making integrated vid chips that support pixel shaders and the like then that will also help get this tech into the hands of more people.

We are just in the infancy of all this, and I myself also want to push forward with Tech and get it out to more people, once that happens then developers may feel more confident about making games wtih better graphics.

Yes the Xabre looks like a great value priced card also with shaders

 

[Gollum]

edit: added Xabre

How about adding a Gf4 Ti4200 too then, they're already cheap and getting cheaper every day (I can already get one cheaper here in Germany at the store around the corner than a GF4MX460)...

Question: you mention how cheap the RV250 is gonna be, could you enlighten me as to what pricetag you expect it to have as I have no idea, thanks?

 

[Doomtrooper]

Hmmph I'd like to know what 'corner' store you are shopping at ???, I spent 6 months in Germany just 2 years ago and travel there often. I work for a Global company that has a factory in Crailsheim south of Stutgart in Bavaria and never seen German prices that low.
In fact our German counterparts that visit us in Canada usually buy a harddrive or video card while here as our prices are lower and the German mark is at par with Canadian money ??

Looking at the German online stores shows a Geforce 4 4200 @ EUR 232,00
http://www.cyberport.de/?DEEP=7402-162&APID=8

And a Geforce 4 Mx 440 EUR 133,00

http://www.cyberport.de/?DEEP=7402-162&APID=8

232 Euro is $350 Canadian and in DEM is $453 and as seen here it is $329 Canadian and converted to DEM would cost 429.00, not alot but cheaper but why they buy when they are here ??

http://www.ncix.com/canada/productdetail.php?sku=8050&PHPSESSID=1b79ae95a8894231e9f283bf27ad1023


The RV250 is targetted at the value segment so ATI must target for the quality Geforce 4 price range which is approx $120 US presently.