Question about Microsoft's PC Xbox 360 strategy

[thenefariousone]

//Hello World!

When I look at the list of games available and coming for the Xbox360, I see a lot of the same games will be available on the pc.

Even though the pc game market is much smaller than the console market, isn't Microsoft taking value away from the 360 by having most of it's games available virtually at the same time on pcs?

Time based exclusivity between the xbox version and the pc version like what happens with Grand Theft Auto and Halo games adds value to the xbox360. It feeds the initial impulse of must buy this game.

However - what happened recently with oblivion doesn't. It came out at the same time on both platforms and the pc version is cheaper to buy.

If Oblivion was only available on the 360 (and assuming xbox360 shortages no longer exist), then wouldn't that lead to more sales for the 360?

Another example: someone walks into a store to buy Oblivion and sees on the shelves:
a) xbox360 version for $60
b) pc version for $45

Then that person thinks: Hm... Instead of spending the extra money for Oblivion, I'll just get it for the pc and adjust the graphics, so it will run on my current pc. And if this happens regularly, then why buy an xbox360 at all?

That's good for the publisher and the consumer, but ultimately bad for the viability of the xbox360.

As much as I appreciate Microsoft's efforts to keep the pc a viable platform for games, this seems counter-productive.

Your thoughts?

 

[EndR]

//Hello World!

When I look at the list of games available and coming for the Xbox360, I see a lot of the same games will be available on the pc.

Even though the pc game market is much smaller than the console market, isn't Microsoft taking value away from the 360 by having most of it's games available virtually at the same time on pcs?

Time based exclusivity between the xbox version and the pc version like what happens with Grand Theft Auto and Halo games adds value to the xbox360. It feeds the initial impulse of must buy this game.

However - what happened recently with oblivion doesn't. It came out at the same time on both platforms and the pc version is cheaper to buy.

If Oblivion was only available on the 360 (and assuming xbox360 shortages no longer exist), then wouldn't that lead to more sales for the 360?

Another example: someone walks into a store to buy Oblivion and sees on the shelves:
a) xbox360 version for $60
b) pc version for $45

Then that person thinks: Hm... Instead of spending the extra money for Oblivion, I'll just get it for the pc and adjust the graphics, so it will run on my current pc. And if this happens regularly, then why buy an xbox360 at all?

That's good for the publisher and the consumer, but ultimately bad for the viability of the xbox360.

As much as I appreciate Microsoft's efforts to keep the pc a viable platform for games, this seems counter-productive.

Your thoughts?

Well, there are different ways you can see it. One is the one you described OR you can also see it as 360 gets games that formerly where only on PC, thus 360 is getting more games.

Now..
Oblivion requires a hefty PC to be enjoyed and that costs some dough. With 360, you can get the same experience cheaper.
There will be exclusive 360 games or games that take advantage of XboxLive so that both PC and 360 gamers can play together.

But..
as I said, this can be viewed in different ways..

edit:
Btw Welcome!!

 

[pjbliverpool]

//Hello World!

When I look at the list of games available and coming for the Xbox360, I see a lot of the same games will be available on the pc.

Even though the pc game market is much smaller than the console market, isn't Microsoft taking value away from the 360 by having most of it's games available virtually at the same time on pcs?

Time based exclusivity between the xbox version and the pc version like what happens with Grand Theft Auto and Halo games adds value to the xbox360. It feeds the initial impulse of must buy this game.

However - what happened recently with oblivion doesn't. It came out at the same time on both platforms and the pc version is cheaper to buy.

If Oblivion was only available on the 360 (and assuming xbox360 shortages no longer exist), then wouldn't that lead to more sales for the 360?

Another example: someone walks into a store to buy Oblivion and sees on the shelves:
a) xbox360 version for $60
b) pc version for $45

Then that person thinks: Hm... Instead of spending the extra money for Oblivion, I'll just get it for the pc and adjust the graphics, so it will run on my current pc. And if this happens regularly, then why buy an xbox360 at all?

That's good for the publisher and the consumer, but ultimately bad for the viability of the xbox360.

As much as I appreciate Microsoft's efforts to keep the pc a viable platform for games, this seems counter-productive.

Your thoughts?

I don't think Microsoft has any say in when Oblivion is released for PC. Bethesda are a 3rd party dev as far as I know.

Besides. I expect the PC games market is quite significantly bigger than the X360 market. The PC games market is only small when you look at it compared to all consoles combined.

 

[thenefariousone]

I don't know about that. Sure there are way more pcs out there, but they aren't for games.

Eeven if what you say is true, the cost of entry to play a games like Oblivion on a pc is large, and therefore only a very small number of people will be able to play it.

That's why most pc only games scale very well. Because they know - most of the target pc audience isn't buying $500 video cards.

I don't think Microsoft has any say in when Oblivion is released for PC. Bethesda are a 3rd party dev as far as I know.

Besides. I expect the PC games market is quite significantly bigger than the X360 market. The PC games market is only small when you look at it compared to all consoles combined.

 

[pjbliverpool]

I don't know about that. Sure there are way more pcs out there, but they aren't for games.

Eeven if what you say is true, the cost of entry to play a games like Oblivion on a pc is large, and therefore only a very small number of people will be able to play it.

That's why most pc only games scale very well. Because they know - most of the target pc audience isn't buying $500 video cards.

Oh yes there are way, way more PC's out there than X360's. And in fact than all other consoles put together. But I was talking about the PC gaming market. I havn't seen any recent figures but from what I can recall, PC games sales are a healthy percentage of the total console market (stab in the dark of say 25%). So unless X360 makes up a percentage of the console market that large or larger, its going to be smaller than the PC market.

Regarding the cost of entry to play Oblivion, like you said, PC games scale. So the cost of entry isn't particularly high, its only high to play the game on good settings.

 

[Dave Glue]

MS is actually going to make a strong push for PC gaming come Vista's release. There will be PC gaming kiosks in prominent game/electronics stores, Vista will have built-in benchmarking to rate your components on a simple number scale, DX10 will be much "closer to the metal" are far more stringent on what cards will be able to call themselves DX10 compliant, etc. While MS wants the 360 to do well, they also want PC gaming to be a selling point for Windows.

Consoles and PC's share some overlap, but the price difference and the experience playing on a couch vs. a desk is just too different for the two markets to really compete significantly, and I think MS is finally realizing that (they basically admitted they've been helping to kill PC gaming, which they want to get back). The orginal Xbox and PC shared many of the same titles, but even when your average gaming PC was well ahead of the Xbox techically, the Xbox versions of the games still sold very well - usually better than the PC version (Doom3 for instance). Someone who has a 360 probably doesn't have a PC to run the game as smoothly with the videocard alone required for that to cost the same price as the console, the 'competition' between the two is very minescule.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Oh yes there are way, way more PC's out there than X360's. And in fact than all other consoles put together. But I was talking about the PC gaming market. I havn't seen any recent figures but from what I can recall, PC games sales are a healthy percentage of the total console market (stab in the dark of say 25%). So unless X360 makes up a percentage of the console market that large or larger, its going to be smaller than the PC market.

Regarding the cost of entry to play Oblivion, like you said, PC games scale. So the cost of entry isn't particularly high, its only high to play the game on good settings.

Yet 360's fledgling userbase is probably going to buy as many or more copies of Oblivion than the established PC market. We'll have to wait on the #'s to see in this case, but in general I would think consoles have a much much higher attach rate than every PC that is considered part of the "gaming market"

I don't know if raw install base comparisons are really valid between PC & consoles without some info on the attach rate for context.

 

[PARANOiA]

I'd agree that they're two vastly different market, and MS is treating them as such. Why not cash in on both at the end of the day?

I have a pretty decent PC, and play Oblivion on that. If I didn't (as most people who buy a console at launch likely do not, since they slapped their cash on that!) I'd pick it up on the 360.

 

[thenefariousone]

I thought microsoft only cashed in when people buy xbox360 games.

This does bring up the question: Other than another reason to have Windows, what value does the pc gaming market really have for Microsoft?

The pc gaming market has been stagnating for years. I think it's going the same way of the arcade - unable to compete with the "personal" game console that offers comparable graphics plus much better ease of use and a much lower cost of entry. Reminds me of mp3 players versus cds too, the more I think about it.


The pc gaming kiosk idea seems really flawed. The things being offered with it and vista for gaming purposes: easier to play games, more stability are things that are available today on any console at a much lower cost. In addition, the majority of really good game developers don't develop primarily for the pc.

Perhaps the xbox360/pc combo is a gateway drug that allows pc developers initially to "test the xbox waters" without having to quit the pc cold turkey. Once they see the huge sales difference between the pc and console versions, they'll inherently make less pc versions. They are a business afterall - and consoles are where the money is.

Because of their experience with using microsoft's pc tools, they'll be more likely to make an xbox360 version first of whatever than anything else.

I'd agree that they're two vastly different market, and MS is treating them as such. Why not cash in on both at the end of the day?

I have a pretty decent PC, and play Oblivion on that. If I didn't (as most people who buy a console at launch likely do not, since they slapped their cash on that!) I'd pick it up on the 360.

 

[pjbliverpool]

Yet 360's fledgling userbase is probably going to buy as many or more copies of Oblivion than the established PC market. We'll have to wait on the #'s to see in this case, but in general I would think consoles have a much much higher attach rate than every PC that is considered part of the "gaming market"

I don't know if raw install base comparisons are really valid between PC & consoles without some info on the attach rate for context.

I wasn't talking about attach rate, I was talking about retail sales. Obviously the PC install base is far larger but in terms of games sales, the PC makes something like 25% of the entire console market - especially when you consider only sales aswell (direct content).

So overall realtail sales on PC are probably higher than xbox. Of course I wouldn't want to be quoted on that without some solid figures but thats what I recall from the last comparison that I saw not too long ago.

 

[pjbliverpool]

This does bring up the question: Other than another reason to have Windows, what value does the pc gaming market really have for Microsoft?

What more reason does MS need than that? Windows is their core business and anything that boosts its sales is a major boost for MS. Their console division is only a very minor part of the entire company.

In a recent survey MS polled users on there uses for the PC and in second place by a wide margin (with 18% IIRC) was gaming. And im sure 18% of the Windows business is worth a lot more than the entire console division.

So based on that PC gaming should be more important to MS than console gaming and perhaps thats why the xbox was brought into existance in the first place. MS saw Sony making a play for the living room with the Playstation and goign relatively unchallenged. This had massive potential to hurt the PC market and with the PC being in a poor position to do anything about it, what do they do? They fight fire with fire and bring out a console of their own.

Thats step 1, provide competition for Sony and hold off their "takeover" of the living room and thus the future of the PC. Step 2 is leverage the benefits of the console market by transferring them to the PC, partly through a shake up of the PC itself, and partly through direct transfer from the MS console.

XNA, Live and the common controller all seem to be examples of this. While MS has been holding back games from the PC in the past for xbox, there's is a chance this was merely to get the console on its feet and once its well established, more of those games can be released sooner to the PC to bolster it as a games machine.

Thats all speculation of course and probably sounds a bit like wishfull thinking. Maybe it is but it certainly a possibility to the best of my knowledge.

 

[expletive]

I thought microsoft only cashed in when people buy xbox360 games.

This does bring up the question: Other than another reason to have Windows, what value does the pc gaming market really have for Microsoft?

The pc gaming market has been stagnating for years. I think it's going the same way of the arcade - unable to compete with the "personal" game console that offers comparable graphics plus much better ease of use and a much lower cost of entry. Reminds me of mp3 players versus cds too, the more I think about it.


The pc gaming kiosk idea seems really flawed. The things being offered with it and vista for gaming purposes: easier to play games, more stability are things that are available today on any console at a much lower cost. In addition, the majority of really good game developers don't develop primarily for the pc.

Perhaps the xbox360/pc combo is a gateway drug that allows pc developers initially to "test the xbox waters" without having to quit the pc cold turkey. Once they see the huge sales difference between the pc and console versions, they'll inherently make less pc versions. They are a business afterall - and consoles are where the money is.

Because of their experience with using microsoft's pc tools, they'll be more likely to make an xbox360 version first of whatever than anything else.

I think we're all a bit jaded at the moment because we're at the dawn of a new console era which always gives the impression that PC Gaming is 'dead'. One thing to remember is that there were some huge PC games last year.

Vista and XNA will allow MS to provide somewhat of a unfied platform for developers, so when theyre cacluating their development resources they wont look at the installed units of just 360, but also a subset of Vista owners. The idea there is to make the XNA/360/vista platform a very compelling financial choice.

Vista will be more than just a better gaming environment for MS and i wouldnt look at VIsta as just XP with a better gaming support. MS is doing a lot with media center type functionality too. So the idea is to layer a superior PC gaming experience on top of everything else Vista will do with HD tivo like functionality, streaming to media extenders, etc.

When you think of it, if MS came out with wireless 360 controllers for Vista, these small form facotr Vista machines might be a comelling purchase for the HTPC/gaming enthusiast to attch to their home theater...

 

[thenefariousone]

Fair enough.

To play devil's advocate:

From the perspective of a potential xbox360 purchaser, the more games that come out on both the 360 and the pc, the less incentive there is to buy a 360. This strategy weakens the two biggest selling points of buying the console for someone who has no vested interest in the state of pc gaming like we do.

Part of the appeal of buying a console is "to have a closed box dedicated to games, where ideally - those games are optimized for the hardware." Games that come out on both platforms around the same time are rarely optimized for both platforms. There have been a number of games on the xbox360 to date that are basically ps2 or xbox games, with a little plastic surgery. While that's almost unavoidable in the beginning, it's not a good motivator to buy the system.

Another appeal is knowing that the only way to play a certain game is to buy that specific console. To know that the game everybody is talking about is "exclusive" to the console.

That's why a lot of people buy consoles from their competitors. Because they don't want to wait for Grand Theft Auto or Final Fantasy.

Back to Oblivion for a second. The game is a system seller. However having it available on pc and xbox360, doesn't help out the xbox360 long term. It would be like microsoft having released Halo both on the pc and the xbox at the same time four years ago. A short term gain for pc gamers, but dilutes the value of the xbox360 brand.

I think we're all a bit jaded at the moment because we're at the dawn of a new console era which always gives the impression that PC Gaming is 'dead'. One thing to remember is that there were some huge PC games last year.

Vista and XNA will allow MS to provide somewhat of a unfied platform for developers, so when theyre cacluating their development resources they wont look at the installed units of just 360, but also a subset of Vista owners. The idea there is to make the XNA/360/vista platform a very compelling financial choice.

Vista will be more than just a better gaming environment for MS and i wouldnt look at VIsta as just XP with a better gaming support. MS is doing a lot with media center type functionality too. So the idea is to layer a superior PC gaming experience on top of everything else Vista will do with HD tivo like functionality, streaming to media extenders, etc.

When you think of it, if MS came out with wireless 360 controllers for Vista, these small form facotr Vista machines might be a comelling purchase for the HTPC/gaming enthusiast to attch to their home theater...

 

[Tap In]

I think the news today that Oblivion broke a sales record (combined) on both PC and X360 is exactly what MS wants to see.

 

[Hardknock]

I don't think MS cares aslong as it's on one of their platforms(360/Windows). Why would they care if a game is exclusive to one or the other?

In particular the PC market is bringing them billions of dollars a year, while the Xbox market ZERO.


I also feel this will be a big advantage for the 360 going forward. Xbox 360 uses Unified Shaders, all future PC games and video cards are going to be made with unified Shaders pretty soon which should make ports very quick and easy. More games for everybody

 

[Johnny Awesome]

I don't think Oblivion will move X360 units to the masses of casual gamers. That's why MS doesn't really care about Oblivion going to PC. It's a pretty small percentage of PC users that would have bought an X360 just to play it IMO. Oblivion is a game for the hardcore gamer. It's too complex for most casual gamers and isn't really going to make a big difference in pushing X360 IMO.

On the other hand you won't see MS allow something like Gears of War on PC for at least 6 months after the X360 release. It's an important title that appeals to casual gamers and will move systems to the masses.

 

[London Geezer]

I don't think MS cares aslong as it's on one of their platforms(360/Windows). Why would they care if a game is exclusive to one or the other?

I'm not disagreeing, but the X360 version should cost a fair bit more, therefore making them more profit than the PC version.

In particular the PC market is bringing them billions of dollars a year, while the Xbox market ZERO.

??? We're talking about software, right? If so, software is the only thing making Microsoft money in the Xbox/X360 adventure they're taking. If it weren't for the software revenues, their losses caused by the hardware would have been even worse.

I also feel this will be a big advantage for the 360 going forward. Xbox 360 uses Unified Shaders, all future PC games and video cards are going to be made with unified Shaders pretty soon which should make ports very quick and easy. More games for everybody

I'm not too sure about that, i mean of course things will be easier, but games on X360 will still need to be re-worked to make use of the EDRAM and other features on X360 has, especially considering it's running on a CPU that's as different as what we'll have in PCs as they come.

 

[Berak]

I wonder how much MS really cares about it's console buisness being profitable. Perhaps it's more important to them to stem Sony's invasion into the living room or PC space. The best defense is a good offense, so make a console good enough to keep Sony focused there. Just speculation on my part.

 

[Rolf N]

Gaming has always been the primary driving factor for the PC industry. Without gaming, the PC would have evolved to a device with large memory and fast drives, but not to where it's now. And Microsoft are just in the process of killing it.

Oblivion is the showcase for this problem. Why play a game on a PC that is built around the limitations of the XBox360 core system? Goes crazy with its LOD system to not use memory (virtual and physical)? With a HUD designed for an SDTV and a game pad? Designed around not having a hard drive? Losing loot to storage nirvana due to save-game space constraints? A game that deprives PC owners from the usual (for the PC) free addon content, because, wait for it, XBox360 owners have to pay too, and it just can't be that the PC version is more attractive in any respect, right? They even removed the import for custom meshes into the construction set, so no, you can't roll your own free horse armor because ... the XBox360 users can't do that either. Well thanks a lot!

Again, why would you want to play it on the PC? What does the PC version offer that makes it better, over even as good as the XBox360 version? In which way does the game take good advantage of PC traits?

And I don't care how much say Microsoft might have had on the PC version of Oblivion, the results can stand on their own. It could have been a great PC game, after all it started off a great PC franchise, but it totally goes out of its way to ignore the inherent strengths of the PC and instead wastes time (runtime and user's time) to work around system limitations that don't even exist on the PC. It's a broken PC game.

You see, that's what happens if you go out of your way to encourage the industry to move towards multiplatform madness. On all receiving ends the games get worse, and at the same time they also get more similar. Strengths of one platform are ignored. Weaknesses of another platform become "inherent design limitations" for all platforms.

The first XBox was slightly different. It was almost a PC, it had a hard drive and virtual memory, it just didn't come standard with mouse and keyboard but that's been about it. It also had an x86 processor so if a programmer went ahead and wrote tightly optimized SSE code or whatever, that could be carried over to the PC.
Result: ports between XBox 1 and PC didn't necessarily have to be that bad.

I postulate that this time around PC gaming is dead for real, Microsoft stands by confused with a blood-dripping knife in hand, and as that personally pisses me off to no end I gleefully expect that Microsoft will only find out the hard way.

I further postulate that a game like the latest Tomb Raider sequel wouldn't have stood a chance to even make it to manufacturing, as a PC game, in a world where the XBox360 didn't exist. You just couldn't say "Yeah it's total crap technically, but that's because it's a port". There would be no excuse, not even a sorry one such as this. It just wouldn't fly.

Summed up I think all of us would be much better off if the XBox and XBox360 had never existed. Including Microsoft.

I'm moving my gaming needs and programming outbursts to Nintendo hardware. There just aren't enough games left on the PC that are not half-assed ports, so why should I bother? Buying games, upgrading my rig, trying to flock game technology in an almost-dead gaming landscape? And why should I care about Vista?

/rant

 

[Moonblade]

Amen, brother.

xbox360 kills the PC stars. But isn't that a necessary evolution? The gamesbusiness is shifting towards a multiplatform approach because of the high development costs.