PSX not at 90nm?

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Are you saying that prescott has 90 nm for its physical gate length ? ( prescott is Intel's first 90 nm chip and IIRC Intel said that the gate length for it was quite less than 90 nm ).

No, silly :) I wanted to say normally when you said say 90nm process, your gate length are also inlined with the guidelines. Well if not, your chip won't be very high in performance.

Since we always associated process with performance, gate length is important also.

You are saying that for Toshiba and Sony when they say 90 nm, 65 nm and 45 nm they mean Metal Pitch, but this seems the case with Intel too judging Prescott.

These are only SIA guidelines, companies are free to say what they want. Everyone seems to be having problem with 90nm process, its no suprise they look elsewhere for guidelines.

I mean they can say what they like about their process, in the end its the benchmark that does the talking.

Eitherway, I don't like the idea that companies stray too much from the guidelines. It means more questions more uncertainty when predicting things.

As for investors, I think Sony should be honest, if they're having problem with their 90nm process.

I do not understand how supposely the world's smallest ( uncontested ) e-DRAM using 65 nm technology is quite bigger than what you have for the 100 nm node.

First its eDRAM there is some penalty to it.

Also the ITRS assume certain conditions like the 90nm process, SIA assume or expects 37nm gate length for example. So if it meets the ITRS conditions it should give closer to the value they're predicting.

And ITRS still has 65nm node for 2007. So maybe when their 65nm node matured in 2007, it'll get smaller yet.
 
  • Intel's 65 nm SRAM cell: 0.57 um^2.
  • CMOS5 ( 65 nm process by Sony and Toshiba )'s SRAM cell: 0.6 um^2.

[url=http://www.vlsisymposium.org/2003/technology/tec_pdf/T2p3.pdf said:
Toshiba-Sony, VLSI Symposium2003[/url]]Highly Stable 65nm Node (CMOS5) 0.56µm2 SRAM Cell Design for Very Low Operation Voltage

This paper presents a very high density embedded SRAM technology for 65nm node (CMOS5). The SRAM cell size is 0.56µm2, which is the smallest of all reported SRAM cells. This fabrication is fully compatible with CMOS logic technologies, using optimized optical proximity correction (OPC).

I do not understand how supposely the world's smallest ( uncontested ) e-DRAM using 65 nm technology is quite bigger than what you have for the 100 nm node.

Yes, perhaps there is a misunderstanding somewhere. What V3 posted... from what I've seen, there has been many problems scaling the cell economically down to that level due to the capacitor IIRC. Which is one of the reasons the FBC that Toshiba presented was as neat as it was.
 
Yes, perhaps there is a misunderstanding somewhere. What V3 posted... from what I've seen, there has been many problems scaling the cell economically down to that level due to the capacitor IIRC. Which is one of the reasons the FBC that Toshiba presented was as neat as it was.

Misunderstanding ?

Hey its early day, 65nm isn't expected to mature till 2007-9. You think they can't improve in the mean time ?

Beside when Toshiba announced it in what end 2002 its pretty much inline with the size the roadmap were expecting, its just the roadmap doesn't go by 65nm process as it was.
 
V3 said:
Hey its early day, 65nm isn't expected to mature till 2007-9. You think they can't improve in the mean time ?

Not if the barrier is the actual cell construct itself; not without some exotic form or something akin to the FBC.

Beside when Toshiba announced it in what end 2002 its pretty much inline with the size the roadmap were expecting, its just the roadmap doesn't go by 65nm process as it was.

Um, I'm sorry, but I'm not catching what you're saying. The cell sizes you posted are nearing a power of ten smaller than the smallest eDRAM cell even talked about publically - which itself is over a traditional process node smaller than the competition. And between your cell size and the OTSS one is a structual barrier. I reserve comment for now.
 
Gate length of Intels 90nm process is 50nm.

intel90nm.gif
 
DaveBaumann said:
Gate length of Intels 90nm process is 50nm.

Big deal. OTSS's minimum gate length is 45nm:

<img src=http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2003/0421/sony1_04.jpg height=200 width=300>


I've intended to stay away from this debate because I see how ridiculous it is and the members taking part in this 'debate'. There is a difference between a process technology and it's application; in this case the EE+GS@90nm. I, personally, find the use of this legacy IC, which met it's preformance targets on the 250nm node, as a metric for the implimentation of aggressive contemporary process technology utterly asnine.

The equilibrium 'zones' which yeild greatest economic benefit have been met: the system has been shrunk to a singular IC, thereby doubling production capability out of OTSS/Nagasaki; the area is &lt;100mm2, which is when a processor becomes extremely cost effective and high yeilding. They have a decisive victory over the competition in terms of system cost and economies of scale - shit, it's been over since day 1. There is no reason to push the IC as Intel pushes it's bleeding-edge multi-GHz ICs or STI will push the BE.

But, I think we all know what's driving this debate forward. Lets see how the process technology is implimented in a high preformance, contemporary IC - the Broadband Engine - and talk then.

EDIT: Make the picture into a link, so it can be small yet readable if desired.
 
Vince said:
PC-Engine said:
Sure assuming SONY's numbers are believable :LOL:

Can we get this post deleted?

Why? Isn't this thread about SONY being caught with their hand in the cookie jar? Didn't you post about that IBM guy talking about large variations in process technology from various competing fabs after discecting chips from the competition? Well aren't we talking about the same thing here?
 
PC-Engine said:
Vince said:
PC-Engine said:
Sure assuming SONY's numbers are believable :LOL:

Can we get this post deleted?

Why? Isn't this thread about SONY being caught with their hand in the cookie jar?

No, it's about people with no clue of what really transpired talking too quickly and bashing Sony because, uh, it's Sony. So, yeah... thanks for summing it up.

If you didn't catch-on yet, they [Sony] did the exact same thing many firms have done since the ~150nm node, which is impliment only some cells at the given node's minimum gate width and then call it XXnm. Infact, I posted a link to an EETimes article several months ago which talked about how the classifications on modern SoC's are becomming fuzzy - just like this. It cited a recent trade show where none of the shown SoC's had gate widths which were to be expected. Yet, I bet nobody remembers that article....
 
Vince said:
Big deal. OTSS's minimum gate length is 45nm:

No need to get so defensive Vince - I'm providing information because people have been querying what Intel's gate lengths are in relation to their 90nm process.
 
Um, I'm sorry, but I'm not catching what you're saying. The cell sizes you posted are nearing a power of ten smaller than the smallest eDRAM cell even talked about publically - which itself is over a traditional process node smaller than the competition. And between your cell size and the OTSS one is a structual barrier. I reserve comment for now.

Well those cell sizes are also for future, its a roadmap afterall derive from survey of current activity in the field.

Barrier need to be overcome eventually. But like I said in the other thread OTSS may sound good with their 65nm ahead of time thing and no doubt the smallest eDRAM cell, I am just saying their result upto now, is not on par with what the ITRS expects in 2007. Everyone still have quite away to go till 2007.

At the moment their processes are more inline with what ITRS define as Low Stand By Power Technology Requirement than High Performance Technology Requirement.
 
If you didn't catch-on yet, they [Sony] did the exact same thing many firms have done since the ~150nm node, which is impliment only some cells at the given node's minimum gate width and then call it XXnm. Infact, I posted a link to an EETimes article several months ago which talked about how the classifications on modern SoC's are becomming fuzzy - just like this. It cited a recent trade show where none of the shown SoC's had gate widths which were to be expected. Yet, I bet nobody remembers that article....

Yes Vince, but you have to remember in the end consumers don't classify chips by their given processes, but by their performance and price tag. Given the current situations in semiconductor world, new smaller process doesn't necessarly equate performance or cheaper price.

But in light of this, if SI hasn't raised the issue, I wouldn't have known that EE+GS@90nm is using 130nm for the GS eDRAM block. I assumed from the announcement in regard with Toshiba 90nm eDRAM, that they would used 90nm for eDRAM as well. I mean no one, in this forum told me that the eDRAM is using 130nm design rules and I hadn't read any article saying so.

So overall, its been informative investigation by SI.
 
Re: ...

asicnewbie said:
Deadmeat said:
EE block = 130 nm
GS eDRAM = 130 nm
GS logic block = 90 nm???(What do you gain by redesigning the GS logic block to smaller geometry when it didn't take up too much space in the first place?)

To help Sony's fabs gain experience-points with 90nm process-tech? Process-migration (of a part) is certain easier when the part's functionality is known and proven in an older process. Intel's first 0.13u CPUs to become available were the mobile Pentium3 and desktop/server Pentium3 (Tualatin.)

Can you mix and match different geometry on same die???

Yes. Nothing prevents a designer from putting larger-than-minimum transistor-structures on a die. Naturally, you'd expect someone to exercise a given process-node (90nm in this case) to its fullest. My guess is that Sony's e-DRAM process wasn't ready in time for their production deadline, so they switched to a more conservative 130nm e-DRAM cell-size (while continuing to refine 90nm in their development fabs.)

More generally, some companies have mixed process-nodes on a single wafer. Xilinx fabbed its Spartan2 using 0.25u for the transistor-logic, and 0.22u for the metal interconnect (and I think Trident Microsystems did the same for its Blade3D VGA.)

Well, this PSX2OAC(EE+GS@90nm) is mostly a 130 nm device based on Sony's own wording. I still don't understand why SCEI deviates from industry accepted standard and calls it a 90 nm device.

Strictly speaking, Sony didn't deviate from ITRS guidelines, as the guidelines refer to production-process and not the product itself. If any portion of the product contains 90nm transistor features, that's enough to validate the 90nm fabrication-line. 130nm equipment certainlly could not produce the chips in question, at any commercially usable yield-rate.

The fact that Sony's product (EE+GS@90nm), contains an unusually large portion lower-density logic, calls into question Sony's 90nm production-readiness.

This reminds me of Intel's "Coppermine" (0.18u Pentium3.) Intel introduced copper-interconnect (metal) at the 0.18u node. Most of the Coppermine's metal-layers used conventional (aluminum.) Only the top (highest) metal-layers used copper. Copper offers lower resistance and hence better performance than aluminum, but suffered from early production problems (due to its brittleness.)

“Nobody's been able to produce a 90-nm chip yet. I'm sure somebody will do it in 2004,â€￾ said Keyes.

Keyes' statement is rather sloppy for an 'industry expert.' It really should read "Nobody's been able to ship production-quality 90nm logic chips yet." Xilinx has been shipping engineering-samples of its 90nm Spartan3 FPGAs for 3 quarters (9 months) now. And obviously, Intel has been struggling with the Prescott's retail release. (Early engineering samples have been floating around for at least 6 months now.)

Thanks for the info! Whew, at least I can find a good qualified opinion in this mess.
 
...

Vince

Lets see how the process technology is implimented in a high preformance, contemporary IC - the Broadband Engine - and talk then.
You don't have to wait until 2005. PSP will be launching this year and there is no execuse for legacy design here...

In the mean time, all evidences suggest that EE+GS is not a 90 nm product, because it does not offer the benefit of a true 90 nm process; the transistor density.

55~60 million transistors on 90~120 mm2 die size has been achieved by other venders on "130 nm" processes, and SCEI fails to show how its "90 nm" process is any superior to other's "130 nm" processes. This is not the case with Intel's "90 nm" process, which managed to pack 150+ million transistors on same die size.
 
Re: ...

Deadmeat said:
You don't have to wait until 2005. PSP will be launching this year and there is no execuse for legacy design here...

In the mean time, all evidences suggest that EE+GS is not a 90 nm product, because it does not offer the benefit of a true 90 nm process; the transistor density.

55~60 million transistors on 90~120 mm2 die size has been achieved by other venders on "130 nm" processes, and SCEI fails to show how its "90 nm" process is any superior to other's "130 nm" processes. This is not the case with Intel's "90 nm" process, which managed to pack 150+ million transistors on same die size.

I'm willing to give Sony/Toshiba the benefit of the doubt here - they are working with legacy designs, and while there process isn't 100% 90nm, its certainly better than 130nm. Another point that I missed earlier is that they have referred to their process as CMOS4, which suggests that they have a different set of defining benchmarks.

I absolutely agree with your point on PSP - this will be the first major product under Sony's new semiconductor strategy, and it will be very interesting to see how it compares to Intel and others. However, looking at their roadmap, I think their emphasis is on 65nm and beyond, so I wouldn't be too surprised if their 90nm technology is significantly behind Intel (after all, they only recently got serious about this). As a sidenote, semiconductor equipment orders in Japan doubled this past year, so you can expect to see that investment coming online in the next 2 years.
 
The EET article explicitly said that neither were 90nm design rules used for devices, nor for the metal grid.

Device channel length indicated around 130nm-ish design rules.

Normally when doing a dumb shrink you reduce the size of the devices but maintain the metal grid at the former feature size. That way you don't have to redo the layout of the chip and gain a (smallish) speed up thanks to the faster devices.

In Sony's case neither was changed so it is essentially a 130nm chip.

Consumers don't care wether Sony uses one or the other (except 90nm should be smaller and hence cheaper).

However, investors do care if Sony are on track with their proces tech. And they most certainly don't like being lied to.

Cheers
Gubbi
 
However, investors do care if Sony are on track with their proces tech. And they most certainly don't like being lied to.

again agreed, and surely this is the REAL point of this topic? that SONY flat out lied to their investors and moved pass the line of whats [even] considered acceptable.
 
From the-magicbox.com....

Sony has denied the report about the EE+GS processor in PSX is manufactured in 130nm technology, Sony stated the final manufacturing process is done with 90nm technology
 
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