PSX not at 90nm?

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Deadmeat said:
Doesn't matter, PSX2OAC is still not a true 90 nm, that much is agreed upon.

HA! This whole thing just gets funnier and funnier.

When asked by Silicon Strategies on Wednesday (February 4, 2004) if Semiconductor Insights could have missed some more aggressively scaled transistors in its original measurements, Edward Keyes, chief technology officer of Semiconductor Insights said that Sony has never claimed to have such small geometry 47-nm transistor gate lengths in its 90-nm process.

Appearently he missed the slide we've been posting for a year:

<img src=http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2003/0421/sony1_04.jpg height=200 width=300>

Also, I'm just curious myself, how is this not a "true" 90nm device? It's physically impossible to impliment in 130nm or 110nm, so why should their implimentation decision to be less aggressive on a 4 year old IC mean it's not "true"?

As I've been saying over and over, the process technology and ability are obviously there - you can see at it in the SEM picture - this is an implimentation issue.
 
If the EE+GS@90 nm the way it was implemented ends up being the most cost effective solution compared to a full 90 nm implementation ( power consumption is a factor ) then who has to worry ?

I thought we were talking about investors confidence that a company's tech is advanced as they say it is. Consumers don't care about such things, and on that level investors won't either. But if Sony tells thier investors they are capable of doing something, I would assume that most investors would care if they actually could.

Whether that is or isn't what is going on here is for you guys to butt heads over. I'm just trying to be usefull. :( :p
 
Re: ...

Deadmeat said:
chip0204.jpg


Chipworks: PSX Chip Is Too 90nm

Online Staff -- Electronic News, 2/4/2004

Technical services company Chipworks Inc. said today that Sony's Playstation X processor was manufactured with 45nm gates, leading it to believe that it is indeed made with a 90nm process.

Another chip market research company, Silicon Insights, claimed that Sony's EmotionEngine and Graphics Synthesizer chip, found in its latest Playstation game console and which Sony says is built on a 90nm process, was actually built with a 0.13-micron, or 130nm process technology. Silicon Insights said it removed the chip from a PSX model DESR-5000, and determined it was built on 130nm technology with a die size of 90mm square.

But Chipworks announced on its site today that after reverse engineering the EmotionEngine chip, that the device has gate lengths more consistent with a 90nm process. Chipworks even has a cross section SEM image on its site of what it says are the gates of the Sony chip in question.

"Chipworks obtained a sample of the Sony PSX chip and had started to take it apart based on the reports that it was a 90nm part, but we have come to somewhat different conclusions than those reported last week," Dick James, Chipworks' senior technology analyst, said in a statement on the company's Web site. "For one thing, we found transistors with a physical gate length of 45nm to 50 nm, which immediately led us to believe that we did have a 90 nm part."

Chipworks conceded that the Sony chip, fabricated in partnership with Toshiba, while perhaps not meeting the exact definition of a 90nm process as spelled out in the International Technology Roadmap for Semiconductors, is nevertheless comparable with the leading edge Intel Corp. process in terms of gate dimension. Intel 90nm chips, as announced at last autumn's Intel Developer Forum, reportedly have gate lengths of 45nm, slightly larger that the 37nm polysilicon gate length considered the benchmark by the ITRS for the 90nm node.

The EmotionEngine chip also utilizes an advanced two stack low-k dielectric structure, according to Chipworks. This, combined with the 45nm gates, makes the chips one of the most advanced in production today, the company maintains.

Chipworks observed that the ATI RADEON 9600XT graphics processor, built by foundry Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co., like the Sony chip uses Applied Materials' Black Diamond low-k intermetal dielectrics, but with 85nm gates. This indicates it is clearly a 0.13-micron device, according to Chipworks.

Semi Insights stands by 'not 90-nm' description of PSX chip
By Peter Clarke
Silicon Strategies
02/05/2004, 12:11 PM ET

LONDON -- Canadian technology and patent analysis company Semiconductor Insights re-iterated its claim that the manufacturing process used to implement the processor used within Sony's Playstation X entertainment system, was not a 90-nm process, on Thursday (February 5, 2004).

This was despite Chipworks Inc, a rival Canadian engineering consultancy, claiming it had found transistors with physical gate lengths considerably smaller than those found by Semiconductor Insights and indicative of a leading-edge process. And despite Sony insisting its Emotion Engine and Graphics Synthesizer, or EE+GS, processor was being built on a 90-nm manufacturing process, as it had always claimed.

The previous week Kanata, Ontario-based Semiconductor Insights had said the smallest physical gate lengths it had found, after sampling multiple sites on the chip, were of 70-nm, and that this was slightly larger than the 65-nm the International Technology Roadmap for Semiconductors (ITRS) equates to a 130-nm manufacturing process.

This, together with a metal-one pitch that Semiconductor Insights measured as being closer to the ITRS 2003 definition for a 130-nm process than a 90-nm process, and similarly relaxed embedded DRAM measurements, had persuaded the firm to go public with its claim (see story).

At the time Edward Keyes Semiconductor Insights chief technology officer said: "It's clear that it's a 130-nm chip, not a 90-nm chip, as defined by the ITRS,"

But on Wednesday (February 4, 2003) Ottawa-based Chipworks published a photograph on its website identified as showing a cross-section of deep-submicron transistors within a CXD9797GB, the official part number of EE+GS processor. Transistors are marked as having physical gate lengths of 46.7-nanometers and 47.5-nanometers.

Although Chipworks acknowledged these did not meet the ITRS 2003 definition for a 90-nm process, the engineering firm observed that the 90-nm manufacturing process from Intel Corp. is reported to have a gate length of 45-nm, barely different from the smallest gate lengths found in the Sony PSX processor.

When asked by Silicon Strategies on Wednesday (February 4, 2004) if Semiconductor Insights could have missed some more aggressively scaled transistors in its original measurements, Edward Keyes, chief technology officer of Semiconductor Insights said that Sony has never claimed to have such small geometry 47-nm transistor gate lengths in its 90-nm process.

Sony's published gate length claims for the CMOS4 process and the ASC9 embedded DRAM process match Semi Insights' findings of 70-nm, Keyes said. Semi Insights has confirmed those measurements and pointed that is not a 90-nm process by the ITRS tables, Keyes added.

Keyes acknowledged it is not possible to measure every transistor but also said it is not necessary as transistors don't come in an infinite number of sizes.

"Engineers don't have the freedom to alter the gate length," said Keyes.

Silicon Strategies asked if it was possible that different logical gates, such as different versions of NAND, with different fan-outs or with different drive strengths, selectable from a library, might result in transistors which when finally etched and diffused in silicon have different physical gate lengths.

"If half of one percent of the gates are at some extreme point does that make the chip belong to the next process node? I would say no," Keyes said in answer.

Reasons why measurements may differ

Keyes said he was reluctant to comment on the Chipworks scanning electron microscope photograph as he did not know how the microscope had been set-up to take the photograph. "There are a couple of reasons you might get different measurements though."

Keyes said that typically gate polysilicon is etched back in preparing the sample. This produces sharp edges that will emit electrons strongly. This can make the surrounding buffer oxides appear thicker than they really are and make the gate appear shorter.

The second possibility is the geometrical effect of taking an end-of-gate slice rather than going through the middle of the transistor when cross-sectioning the chip.

Rather like slicing though the edge, rather than the middle of an orange this has the effect of making the polysilicon gate (the flesh of the orange) look narrower and the oxides (the pith) appear wider.

When asked how it was possible to now whether a sliced transistor was a good representation of the gate length or an end-of-gate aberration Keyes said, "It comes down to the law of averages. If 99 percent are the transistors are constant and there's a few 30 percent smaller you discount it."

Keyes acknowledged that he would expect end-of-gate slices to vary and not to show identical reduced measurements.

Keyes added that Semiconductor Insights assessment had not just rested on the lack of sub-70-nm gate length transistors but also on the metal-one pitch which had measured at 260-nm. Keyes said the ITRS definition gives 210-nm for a 90-nm manufacturing process and 295-nm for a 130-nm process.

Dick James, senior technology analyst for Chipworks, said he could not identify whereabouts in the EE+GS processor sub-50-nm transistors had been found, because, until an example chip is delayered, the transistor layout remains hidden under upper metal layers.

James said he also believed that the transistors Chipworks had found were not end-of-transistor anomalies because several transistors in a line had produced similar measurements in each transistor. If an end-of-transistor anomaly was being measured you would expect the measurements to vary, he said, unless the cut happened to hit the arc of each transistor-end in the same place.

James also said that Chipworks was familiar with edge-effects in samples prepared for scanning electron microscopy by etching. "There is a bit of distortion depending on beam energy. But when you're looking at a gap like this I've got more confidence. Our SEMs are calibrated to within plus or minus 5 percent," said James.

"We did see wider polysilicon lines. But we see p-channel at 48 to 49-nm and n-channel transistors at 46 to 47-nm. The embedded DRAM is more relaxed but you'd expect that."

After studying Chipworks' photograph Semiconductor Insights' Keyes wrote an email to Silicon Strategies saying: "It's apparent that the line-end effect that we talked about is not occurring in this cross-section and hence cannot be the explanation for their smaller measurement. We do still stand by our original statement that this is not 90-nm technology according to the roadmap and we will be investigating further."
SI Vs Chipworks, who's right???

Doesn't matter, PSX2OAC is still not a true 90 nm, that much is agreed upon.

That was agreed by Sony and Toshiba as well: they are capable of a full 90 nm chips ( Toshiba already produces 90 nm ICs ), but decided to use relaxed rules for the EE and an older e-DRAM library as they did not need the extra performance and they welcomed the lower leakage of more rleaxed design rules where they could.

The GS was redesigned following 90 nm manufacturing rules.

Intel 90nm chips, as announced at last autumn's Intel Developer Forum, reportedly have gate lengths of 45nm, slightly larger that the 37nm polysilicon gate length considered the benchmark by the ITRS for the 90nm node.

So, Sony and Toshiba are not light years behind Intel, huh ? ( EE+GS@90 nm shipped before Prescott, but it is true that Prescott is a quite big jump in terms of Transistor's count, basic architecture [Yamhill ?] and power consumption from Northwood ).

Are you going to say that CMOS4 is not such a laughing stock ( same gate length as Intel's 90 nm manufacturing process ) or are you going to come down harshily on Intel too ?

The EmotionEngine chip also utilizes an advanced two stack low-k dielectric structure, according to Chipworks. This, combined with the 45nm gates, makes the chips one of the most advanced in production today, the company maintains.
 
Re: ...

Vince said:
Also, I'm just curious myself, how is this not a "true" 90nm device? It's physically impossible to impliment in 130nm or 110nm, so why should their implimentation decision to be less aggressive on a 4 year old IC mean it's not "true"?

Beacuse, Vince, "lithography is everything", therefore if it were possible for Sony to be more aggressive (and make a true 90nm chip), they would have.

Right?
 
Oh no, pretty much all of us disagree with Vince on that taken to extremes. ;) Still, on the EE+GS it's pointless, but on the chips going to the PSP and PS3--not so much.
 
Still, on the EE+GS it's pointless

You know.. I find myself in agreement with just about everything Cthellis says, this is no exception.

Let's compare PS3'S and PSP'S IC(BE and PSPCPU respectivly) and not some 4 year old EE+GS combo designed to bring PS2 costs down and to provide PS2 compatability in PS3.

Oh no, pretty much all of us disagree with Vince on that taken to extremes.

I don't.
 
Re: ...

Joe DeFuria said:
Beacuse, Vince, "lithography is everything", therefore if it were possible for Sony to be more aggressive (and make a true 90nm chip), they would have.

Right?

Right, it's cool that you remember, but the argument was applicable when we're talking about high-preformance, bleeding-edge ICs. In which case it most certainly is paramount and I still believe that; as well as believe that the proof shall be in the goods.

The EE+GS@90nm, though, most definitly doesn't fall under the above aegis. The fact that they can produce a single IC per PS2 has huge economic benefits as it is, and if they can attain good yeilds with their already sub-100mm2 die, why push? The only reason I could see is preformance, and that's a non-starter. Although, with the massive, 180nm I-32 GS clocking at 600MHz - I think it would be neat to see what they could do. But, I suppose we shall see with PS3 soon enough.
 
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