PSP: Playable on show floor, impressions inside.

[Vince]

You're grasping at straws to try and win an argument. The fact is, DC can do motion blur as seen in some games. Whether it looks better than PS2 is debatable and moot. PS2 can't do dot 3 sorry. It can do embossed bm with many passes too many to be used in-game actually.

PlayStation2 can do DOT3 theoretically, the question then comes down to it's plausible usage in actual gaming enviroments.

Which, oddly enough, applies just as much to Dreamcast as PS2...

PS. I wouldn't go around talking about "grasping at straws" - I'm starting to see that you're attempting to pick up where Deadmeat left off, eh?

 

[PC-Engine]

Not really, I've been this way even before DM

DC can do dot3 in one or two passes which is possible for use in-game. Claiming PS2 can do dot3 is like saying it can do ray tracing. Technically my GBA can do ray tracing too.

 

[Fafalada]

DC can do dot3, anisotropic, S3TC.

If DC can do S3TC, then PS2 can as well, only about 12x faster.

As for framebuffer effects, motion trail (the 'standard' way to do motion blur in realtime) costs DC 20% of frametime. It costs about 1.4% frametime on PS2. And that's by far the cheapest type of FB processing, most games do a whole lot more nowadays.
If you think that makes them comparable, then PS2 doing DOT3 in 4passes is comparable to DC's one as well.

 

[PC-Engine]

DC can do dot3, anisotropic, S3TC.

If DC can do S3TC, then PS2 can as well, only about 12x faster.

As for framebuffer effects, motion trail (the 'standard' way to do motion blur in realtime) costs DC 20% of frametime. It costs about 1.4% frametime on PS2. And that's by far the cheapest type of FB processing, most games do a whole lot more nowadays.
If you think that makes them comparable, then PS2 doing DOT3 in 4passes is comparable to DC's one as well.

You didn't know DC is hardwired to do S3TC on-the-fly? BTW, does any games on PS2 use S3TC? I think Simon is gonna have to confirm or deny the 20% frametime figure. It used on-chip buffers. Remember that DC games have demonstrated motion blur so it's not too expensive to use in-game. dot 3 has not been used in ANY PS2 games so it must not be feasible in-game.

 

[marconelly!]

None of the DC games have demostrated even a fragment of framebuffer effects complexity and particles seen in ZOE2, and that game runs at 60FPS.

 

[Fafalada]

You didn't know DC is hardwired to do S3TC on-the-fly?

No, last time I checked it did have PVRVQ though.

BTW, does any games on PS2 use S3TC?

I don't know - I DO know for a fact that several use different variations of VQ however.

I think Simon is gonna have to confirm or deny the 20% frametime figure. It used on-chip buffers. Remember that DC games have demonstrated motion blur so it's not too expensive to use in-game.

A 100% of a 1/60s-frame need not be too expensive if you run at 30fps. Anyway, DOT3 has been absent from DC games too, and you won't see me arguing that it was not feasible in-game.

 

[Lazy8s]

Fox5:

Have we seen anything done on mbx yet?

True, it's harder to compare without the same level of software development going on.

I think extra definition from FSAA impacts mobile graphics especially because their resolutions are so much lower to begin with. MBX goes beyond Dreamcast with fitting additions like polybump and HOS support with fractional tessellation levels not limited to being fixed across each patch. Even a portable powered by Dreamcast would noticeably deliver extra FSAA definition to the small screen, and that could compare well with the PSP.

marconelly!:

In any case, the whole MBX argument is retarded. So what if it's quite cheap and maybe comparable to PSP?

The discussion regarding the MBX was about showing that outsourced solutions could be competitive.

There are many games on PS2 that match or exceed best textured DC games (and usually run at higher framerate)

Throughout which PS2 games is the texture definition as high as Sonic Adventure 2?

What effects? If there is one thing where PS2 absolutely trumps DC, it's stuff like particles, animated textures and various lighting or framebuffer effects.

Agreed for some of course, though I've seen a dot-product-bump-mapping per-pixel lighting effect on DC in-game before but not on PS2. DC also had functionality for working with and combining textures together in a quick, on-chip buffer which would probably require establishing another buffer and multiple passes for PS2.

Ty:

MBX itself is $17 (per Lazy).

No, that's with the mark-up in there from the company that's building their own architecture out of it and then reselling it out. When the manufacturer of the portable machine is the one doing the licensing, they'll be using it themselves and not reselling it. So, it'll actually be even less.

marconelly!:

Again, confusing hardware features with the actual accomplishments in software.

In DC's extremely limited dev life, it in fact used dot product bump mapping and anisotropic filtering in game. PS2 has had more opportunity than any system this generation to show itself, so it hasn't been as practical for PS2 if such features haven't been used.

PS2 has a strong advantage in frame buffer post processing, but motion blur is still practical for DC with smart application or focused on the models you want to accentuate.

 

[LogisticX]

My god, we're back to this same tired arguement. I'm sorry, but isn't it clear by now that NONE of you are going to sway either side to reach an agreement?

You guys must talk to walls when not on the computer because convincing a wall that bread and cheese is a delightful combination of foods is just about as useful as these arguments. I think some of you just like hearing yourselves talk.

 

[Ty]

No, that's with the mark-up in there from the company that's building their own architecture out of it and then reselling it out. When the manufacturer of the portable machine is the one doing the licensing, they'll be using it themselves and not reselling it. So, it'll actually be even less.

Even cut in half that still leaves little room for a portable DC to be $50 or under.

 

[Simon F]

Have we seen anything done on mbx yet? MBX is like within 20% of the power of the dc, even the dc game with the most polygons plus 20% wouldn't come close to what PSP is already doing in some games.

Yes. Just do a search of the threads!

 

[jvd]

I sitll say a cube portable could be made for 100$

Show me a 90nm 750 core integrated onto Flipper running under 1W and your claim *might* have an ounce of credibility...

I still haven't seen you give a good answer .And no "sony couldn' tmake the ps2 portable " does not work.

Unless you can show me a portable that plays PS2 titles as is, movies, PSOne titles, room for an HDD (since you're insisting on a "PS2 portable") it does work...

a 750 core on 90nm running at the flipper speeds may run that low. Esp with tweaking and other ehancements to the core.

And no just because sony can't do it doesn't mean others can't

SOny couldn't push beta . But vhs went through. Sony coulnd't push mini discs but mp3 players sold in mass .

Sony fails alot. Just because sony can't do it doesn't mean nintendo can't do something.

 

[Simon F]

Wow, you make it sound so easy! MBX itself is $17 (per Lazy). Add an Arm ...

MBX is intended for SOCs - it doesn't live on its own. It'd be integrated onto the same die as the CPU.

I have no idea about costs (i.e. licensing) so I can't (and won't) comment on what Lazy said.

 

[Simon F]

Correction time:

DC can do ....S3TC....

No. It has VQ texture decompression HW, not S3TC.

Again, confusing hardware features with the actual accomplishments in software. I know DC can do all that, but DOT3 can be achieved on PS2 with multipass rendering as well.

No. PS2 doesn't support DOT3 Bump mapping as a native texture mode. You have to do a " bit of a hack" to do it. IIRC according to Sony (in "Develop" magazine) you need to

• put your bump mapped objects in first.
• Texture them with four passes using 4(?) variations of your normal map
• Do several frame buffer passes where the resulting RGBA values are mixed and added
• THEN start applying the normal textures to the objects and then put the others in.

I'd like to know how to do translucent bump mapped objects

IIRC, DC requires two (or one if only modulating a vertex-coloured object) texture layers on an object to do dot product bump mapping, i.e, exactly the same as any modern HW.

 

[jvd]

Wow, you make it sound so easy! MBX itself is $17 (per Lazy). Add an Arm ...

MBX is intended for SOCs - it doesn't live on its own. It'd be integrated onto the same die as the CPU.

I have no idea about costs (i.e. licensing) so I can't (and won't) comment on what Lazy said.

Simon it is 15 million transistors though right ? which would be a realy cheap add on to an arm system .

 

[Simon F]

Simon it is 15 million transistors though right ?

I only know how big it is in silicon area - and I'm not saying.

 

[jvd]

Simon it is 15 million transistors though right ?

I only know how big it is in silicon area - and I'm not saying.

Hmmm are we still talking about mbx ???? haha just joking . Thanks though

 

[Simon F]

Me thinks you are confusing silicon and silicone.... unless Pamela Anderson's upgrades were actually to increase mental power.... :?

 

[jvd]

Me thinks you are confusing silicon and silicone.... unless Pamela Anderson's upgrades were actually to increase mental power.... :?

lol . Ah man that is great .

 

[PC-Engine]

None of the DC games have demostrated even a fragment of framebuffer effects complexity and particles seen in ZOE2, and that game runs at 60FPS.

I don't recall anyone here mentioning DC being able to do extensive particle effects. You like arguing with yourself it seems.

Again the nobody was talking about how much motion blur is used in games. The point was that DC can and does do motion blur in-game so it's not just a hardware feature that has no realworld use. Why do you try with every last breath to insinuate that the only acceptable motion blur has to be done with an embedded framebuffer? I'm sorry, but there are different ways of doing motion blur whether you approve or not. Heck the motion blur in MGS on PS1 was actually pretty good less PS1's ugly graphics.

 

[London Geezer]

And u've been proven wrong again and again about DC and DOT3 and S3TC, filtering, and whatever else people think DC is superior to everything in the universe... Proven wrong not by me or by the common guys around here. By developers who actually have worked on both platforms.

DOT3 is nowhere to be seen on PS2 games? Show it to me in DC games. Oh i forgot. A bottle in Shenmue. ONE SINGLE BOTTLE in Shenmue.... :|

So what? Do DC games look any worse because they don't have DOT3? No! Do PS2 games look any worse in some people's eyes because it uses some wacky texture compression instead of the commonly used S3TC or DC's VQ?!

Do we have to have the same 4 year old discussion again every 6 months or so...?