[PS3] Uncharted 2
- Thread starter DieH@rd
- Start date
Here's the footage that 'proves' it happens...
Now for the caveats. When testing, the expected result didn't happen. I have experienced in game misses shooting someone in the open, but I couldn't recreate it. I also had my wall incident that I couldn't recreate. So it's not as black-and-white as it appears. There are clearly some reasonably complex evaluations being performed. However, the above proves there are problems with the system. The extent of these problems will be hard to track down without a lot of resources, if they are the result of some fringe-case evaluations.
What I don't understand though is why not use a true gun-barrel trajectory to determine what gets hit? It's an obvious solution and technically correct, and should be a hell of a lot simpler to implement than U2's current offset mechanic that has to measure all sorts of distances by my reckoning.
Now for the caveats. When testing, the expected result didn't happen. I have experienced in game misses shooting someone in the open, but I couldn't recreate it. I also had my wall incident that I couldn't recreate. So it's not as black-and-white as it appears. There are clearly some reasonably complex evaluations being performed. However, the above proves there are problems with the system. The extent of these problems will be hard to track down without a lot of resources, if they are the result of some fringe-case evaluations.
What I don't understand though is why not use a true gun-barrel trajectory to determine what gets hit? It's an obvious solution and technically correct, and should be a hell of a lot simpler to implement than U2's current offset mechanic that has to measure all sorts of distances by my reckoning.
Dunno, but the gunbarrel trajectory could provide lots of trouble when covering behind objects and leaning around them. ie. you see behind the object from third person, but you don't have line-of-sight from drakes perspective.
How would you deal with such issues? Leave drake shooting the obstacle or make drake take another step to clear the path (actually finding a direct path from the gun to what youre pointing at from an elevated 3rd person perspective could be very hard or even impossible in the general case) ?
It would certainly only be simpler than the current solution if you just hit whatever is in Drakes path, considering Drake would have to peek out of cover to potentially hit everywhere the 3rd person perspective allows you to look at.
More info about the game:
"Our characters they typically have eighty thousand polygons in you know, one character, like the main character. In total- what we try to push through to the graphics chip at one point two million triangles that we try to draw every frame. We do a lot using the cell processor."
http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-...n-a-second-eighty-thousand-in-main-characters
"Our characters they typically have eighty thousand polygons in you know, one character, like the main character. In total- what we try to push through to the graphics chip at one point two million triangles that we try to draw every frame. We do a lot using the cell processor."
http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-...n-a-second-eighty-thousand-in-main-characters
I've been playing Uncharted 1 again and I just noticed that if you hide behind a wall without going into cover it is possible to shoot enemies that Drake would not even be able to see due to the wall being in the way.
Basically Drake is hidden behind the wall but when you aim, the reticle is in the centre of the screen and the camera is not directly behind Drake, but is slightly to one side. So you can see and shoot stuff that Drake would not actually be able to see.
I guess they have fixed this for Uncharted 2 and it has caused the minor close-range aiming issues, but I'll have a look next time I play the beta.
Basically Drake is hidden behind the wall but when you aim, the reticle is in the centre of the screen and the camera is not directly behind Drake, but is slightly to one side. So you can see and shoot stuff that Drake would not actually be able to see.
I guess they have fixed this for Uncharted 2 and it has caused the minor close-range aiming issues, but I'll have a look next time I play the beta.
The game will soon be mine! 
I can't wait!
Just cancelled my pre-order from HD Movie Source and changed it into a Brutal Legend pre-order.
I found out the US version of Uncharted 2 doesn't support the Dutch language (although the first one did), and I kinda want that because my girlfriend loved the first game and can't wait to for this one either. Unfortunately, her English sucks, so I really need those subtitles for her to enjoy it.
Anyway, it's due to release the 16th here in The Netherlands, but if I'm lucky I can get it a few days earlier.
Anyone from The Netherlands here who has already got it or seen it for sale somewhere?
I can't wait!
Just cancelled my pre-order from HD Movie Source and changed it into a Brutal Legend pre-order.
I found out the US version of Uncharted 2 doesn't support the Dutch language (although the first one did), and I kinda want that because my girlfriend loved the first game and can't wait to for this one either. Unfortunately, her English sucks, so I really need those subtitles for her to enjoy it.
Anyway, it's due to release the 16th here in The Netherlands, but if I'm lucky I can get it a few days earlier.
Anyone from The Netherlands here who has already got it or seen it for sale somewhere?
The aiming issue is as follows:
Because U2 isn't first person, the difference in position between the camera and the gun barrel means if we always shot the bullets from the gun you would often not be able to hit what you are aiming at. (Note that this is true even at very long range, so we can't just ignore it unless we're close to a wall. Also note that Gears does the same thing. Any online TPS will. MGS solves this problem by having a double reticle appear, but that can be confusing and frustrating at times.)
This can be a problem though, because we don't people to be able to hit someone if that person can't see them. So we do raycasts to check if you are very close to a wall in multiplayer, and if the gun trajectory would intersect from the barrel, we shoot from a barrel if within a certain distance.
We do an additional check though, to see if the reticle is over a player, if that is the case, *and* there is line of sight to the player from the gun barrel, we shoot from the camera anyway.
The bug you are noticing in the video, therefore, only happens if the reticle is *not* over another player. So although it looks like it's broken when testing aiming at walls, it reality it works perfectly whenever you aim at another player, except in the case where you are hitting someone who *cannot* see you.
Therefore, the issue you are seeing has no practical effect in game.
I hope that makes sense. Just wanted to clear this up.
Travis McIntosh
Lead Programmer
Naughty Dog Inc.
Because U2 isn't first person, the difference in position between the camera and the gun barrel means if we always shot the bullets from the gun you would often not be able to hit what you are aiming at. (Note that this is true even at very long range, so we can't just ignore it unless we're close to a wall. Also note that Gears does the same thing. Any online TPS will. MGS solves this problem by having a double reticle appear, but that can be confusing and frustrating at times.)
This can be a problem though, because we don't people to be able to hit someone if that person can't see them. So we do raycasts to check if you are very close to a wall in multiplayer, and if the gun trajectory would intersect from the barrel, we shoot from a barrel if within a certain distance.
We do an additional check though, to see if the reticle is over a player, if that is the case, *and* there is line of sight to the player from the gun barrel, we shoot from the camera anyway.
The bug you are noticing in the video, therefore, only happens if the reticle is *not* over another player. So although it looks like it's broken when testing aiming at walls, it reality it works perfectly whenever you aim at another player, except in the case where you are hitting someone who *cannot* see you.
Therefore, the issue you are seeing has no practical effect in game.
I hope that makes sense. Just wanted to clear this up.
Travis McIntosh
Lead Programmer
Naughty Dog Inc.
Many thanks for coming by and explaining stuff (and to all of ND for programming such an awesome engine
)!Have you played Warhawk? It seems to use barrel-trajectory exclusively, and when things do get in the way, you'd expect it to anyway. I suppose there's some scenery, especially in U2's complex environments, that would account for a lot more aiming problems from the barrel, but I can't say in WH I noticed aiming woes and finding bullets failing to reach their target.
That makes perfect sense and sounds a valid workaround to the TPS camera advantage, but my second video also suggests the implementation has a rogue bug. Have you seen the video where the reticule is over my friend's head and I miss? Given reports of players' in-game experiences, I think there are some occassions where the system fails to recognise the reticule is over a player at close range and is wrongfully applying the offset.
Im not so sure if this works 100% of the time, as i have clearly aimed at people who are stationary at close range and shots miss, them being stationary should put lag out of any equation. They hit right on target every time if i use the pistol thought...
Precisely. There are enough user experience reports to suggest there are bugs. These could be passed off as lag or misperceptions without any solid proof, but now we have a categorical example of shots missing, these reports can be viewed in a new light. Data should be gathered to try to determine what circumstances cause the miss.
You did your video test with a friendly, rather than an enemy...which might be different. Eg. saw this posted on Gaf:
"Ah yeah basically at a certain distance they change from shooting from the barrel to shooting from the camera to allow you to hit enemies from close range, so when an enemy gets too close it triggers the switch for how it calculates the shots, it probably just doesn't trigger with friendlies because you're not supposed to be aiming for them anyway."
So...get your friend to choose "villain" and try the test again.
grandmaster
Veteran
My review copy of U2 has been goading me from the corner of the room for the last week, and I've not allowed myself to play it since I have so many plates to spin these days. Fired up single-player today and... um... wow. An absolute treat. Played through nine chapters in one stting. The Napal level in particular is so much more than what we've seen so far.
There's just so much in this game that the budget for it must have been ginormous. Everything has been lavished with so much care, attention and polish. It's a real landmark game. And Chloe is a filthy minx. She's awesome.
There's just so much in this game that the budget for it must have been ginormous. Everything has been lavished with so much care, attention and polish. It's a real landmark game. And Chloe is a filthy minx. She's awesome.
I did with someone else just afterwards. Same result.
Yes Ive spoken about this issue multiple times over the years in various places
read this thread here
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=43190
One possible solution is this
both are 3rd person camera (though the bottom looks first but its not)
what you do is shoot from first person viewpoint BUT attach a tracer that emanates from the gun barrel, OK there are a couple of obvious caveats + requires some trickery but IMO the benifits outweigh the disadvantages
I dont think when it says "enemy" it means "villain" characters. It means those in the opposite team as yours
I know that...I mean that one person has to choose Hero and one person has to choose Villain. Both characters in his video example were Heroes (both green - meaning friendlies) - he needs to choose opposites for a fair test.
