[PS3] Uncharted 2

deepbrown said:
They did improve the SP...constant interviews stating the MP didn't damage their SP development. They hired guys specifically for MP. Played Uncharted 2 SP? No.
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Of course they are going to state this. Is this a surprise? Of course Uncharted 2 is, most probably, going to be better than Uncharted, again, Naughty Dog is one of the best companies out there, where is the surprise? I´m sorry if my point was not explained the right way (english is my third language, so bear with me :) ). I was trying to say that Uncharted 2 SP would be better if there would be no MP, not that Uncharted 2 SP was not improved (when comparing to Uncharted 1) because of the MP part in Uncharted 2.

Even if the MP part was done by a completely different team (from programming to QA), you seriously do not believe that the projects leads et al have the same amount of time for SP if Uncharted 2 has MP and has not?

Today reviews will very often say that it is a minus that game has no multiplayer, hence MP is getting more and more standard. Again, I am against this and any other black/white reasoning mentality. Especially, if it´s the same old DM, CTF, co-op story...

Will you ever be able to play Uncharted 2 single player like it would´ve been without MP being developed at al? No, so we can maybe agree to disagree...

And to end this posting, I also believe that while developing a MP part you can find things that will improve the single player experience. But as time + budget are the biggest constrains, I still believe developing a SP only game with the same budget and time (and of course team) will get a better product then developing SP+MP with the same budget, time and team.

Hope I have managed to explain my view in a better way and take it for what it´s worth (comment from an avid player since 1984 or something with no ties/experience in the gaming industry at all)...

Have a nice day :)

Cheers...
 
There is no way to know if the SP would be any different. I may have just came out earlier. MP adds a lot of value to the package and i would think the vast majority prefer to have it.

Its entirely possible the SP could have suffered without MP through being artificially lengthened.
 
Yemeth said:
Of course they are going to state this. Is this a surprise? Of course Uncharted 2 is, most probably, going to be better than Uncharted, again, Naughty Dog is one of the best companies out there, where is the surprise? I´m sorry if my point was not explained the right way (english is my third language, so bear with me :) ). I was trying to say that Uncharted 2 SP would be better if there would be no MP, not that Uncharted 2 SP was not improved (when comparing to Uncharted 1) because of the MP part in Uncharted 2.

Even if the MP part was done by a completely different team (from programming to QA), you seriously do not believe that the projects leads et al have the same amount of time for SP if Uncharted 2 has MP and has not?

Today reviews will very often say that it is a minus that game has no multiplayer, hence MP is getting more and more standard. Again, I am against this and any other black/white reasoning mentality. Especially, if it´s the same old DM, CTF, co-op story...

Will you ever be able to play Uncharted 2 single player like it would´ve been without MP being developed at al? No, so we can maybe agree to disagree...

And to end this posting, I also believe that while developing a MP part you can find things that will improve the single player experience. But as time + budget are the biggest constrains, I still believe developing a SP only game with the same budget and time (and of course team) will get a better product then developing SP+MP with the same budget, time and team.

Hope I have managed to explain my view in a better way and take it for what it´s worth (comment from an avid player since 1984 or something with no ties/experience in the gaming industry at all)...

Have a nice day :)

Cheers...
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"I was trying to say that Uncharted 2 SP would be better if there would be no MP" - There's no way you can say that. In fact you could say the opposite. The SP could have been improved by them putting in MP. Eg. more characters on-screen, the need for more reactive controls, need for a better framerate etc. etc.
 
Yemeth said:
And to end this posting, I also believe that while developing a MP part you can find things that will improve the single player experience. But as time + budget are the biggest constrains, I still believe developing a SP only game with the same budget and time (and of course team) will get a better product then developing SP+MP with the same budget, time and team.
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Though I see you're point, I'm not sure it's a convincing argument. I think you'd have to give actual examples of where the single player exerience could be improved and where MP development (especially coop which I think is increasingly important this gen and going forwards) has held SP back.
 
The review of my local site says its the best SP campaign ever(read since a long time) :cool: ! I think your fears are going to be swept away. It also mentions best story telling in a game ! Tall claims , but if not ND, then who ;) !
 
ShadowRunner,deepbrown and Shifty thanks for your replies. This is my last posting to this OT, as I think I have managed to get my point across, just want to waste a bit more of my time and some more bandwith on the internet.
Its entirely possible the SP could have suffered without MP through being artificially lengthened.
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Yes, it is possible, altough I firmly believe that a company like Naughty Dog would not easily make such errors and it could be prevented even easier as more people would be working on the SP part. Not to mention that someone (deepbrown, IIRC) mentioned the last boss fight was a bit rushed, because of time constraints (not that I felt it through my numerous playthroughs).

There's no way you can say that. In fact you could say the opposite. The SP could have been improved by them putting in MP. Eg. more characters on-screen, the need for more reactive controls, need for a better framerate etc. etc.
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Of course I can say that, I just did ;) . Seriously, I agree with your points and during MP developing they certainly found dozens of things which directly improved the SP experience. But, who is to say how many more things would´ve been improved if all the MP part resources would´ve been free to concetrate on the SP experience or that the very same improvements wouldn´t/couldn´t be done without a MP part at all?

Anyway, when I read my comments I somehow get the feeling I am maybe coming over as overly critical to Uncharted 2. I loved the first part, I loved its story, it´s graphics, sound, smart decisions (one of the few games where I can watch the cutscenes when I want and in the language and subtitle I want etc.!) etc. I think that Uncharted 2 will top the first SP experience in every aspect ("Elena, last year´s model!" or "Kitty got wet"), but I still would´ve wanted that some games do not jump on the "because everyone does it" train...

Though I see you're point, I'm not sure it's a convincing argument. I think you'd have to give actual examples of where the single player exerience could be improved and where MP development (especially coop which I think is increasingly important this gen and going forwards) has held SP back.
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You mean in Uncharted 2? Of course, I cannot as I am not the team lead, I do not know what features where abandod due to time constrains and have not even played Uncharted 2 SP etc. Everything I learned during being a team lead/project lead is that if you have additional work/features you have to cut some corners elsewhere. If it wouldn´t be the case every game out there would have an unlimited amount of features... Sometimes the implementation of certain additional features can be "for free" as it helps in several other areas and saves time elsewhere, but I seriously doubt most forms of MP can be named as such.

I think you can think of dozens of mediocre multiplayer addons which have done nothing for the game (Turok MP? How long did people played that MP?) except adding the "yes, we have MP too! Give us a higher score/buy it!". Again, maybe I was bringing my general thoughts in the wrong thread/wrong game as Uncharted 2 MP is certainly not an glued on useless MP part, only for MP part sake. Sorry for that...

It can be that I am in the minority and that 99,9% of the buyers/reviewers will think that MP is always a good addition, but I have still my reasons for that belief. I want that Uncharted 2 will be a bigger seller than the first part, because I think that the sales of the first part are way to low for such an great title (luckily not in the Planescape: Torment ratio).

Thanks alot for the discussion and take care! :)
 
I was one of th epeople who was against U2 having MP when it was announced. Got converted after the beta and the reviews now seem to only make us all happy. :) I had exactly similar fears, but apparently, it has been only for the better.
Lets all wait and see, only playing can tell whats better whats not ! :D
 
Yemeth said:
ShadowRunner,deepbrown and Shifty thanks for your replies. This is my last posting to this OT, as I think I have managed to get my point across, just want to waste a bit more of my time and some more bandwith on the internet.


Yes, it is possible, altough I firmly believe that a company like Naughty Dog would not easily make such errors and it could be prevented even easier as more people would be working on the SP part. Not to mention that someone (deepbrown, IIRC) mentioned the last boss fight was a bit rushed, because of time constraints (not that I felt it through my numerous playthroughs).



Of course I can say that, I just did ;) . Seriously, I agree with your points and during MP developing they certainly found dozens of things which directly improved the SP experience. But, who is to say how many more things would´ve been improved if all the MP part resources would´ve been free to concetrate on the SP experience or that the very same improvements wouldn´t/couldn´t be done without a MP part at all?

Anyway, when I read my comments I somehow get the feeling I am maybe coming over as overly critical to Uncharted 2. I loved the first part, I loved its story, it´s graphics, sound, smart decisions (one of the few games where I can watch the cutscenes when I want and in the language and subtitle I want etc.!) etc. I think that Uncharted 2 will top the first SP experience in every aspect ("Elena, last year´s model!" or "Kitty got wet"), but I still would´ve wanted that some games do not jump on the "because everyone does it" train...
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There's quite a simple reason why they're doing it - the game will sell more and there'll be less trade ins. Simples.
 
RenegadeRocks said:
The review of my local site says its the best SP campaign ever(read since a long time) :cool: ! I think your fears are going to be swept away. It also mentions best story telling in a game ! Tall claims , but if not ND, then who ;) !
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I "know" U2 will be great but I can't believe it's that good yet. Don't want to be disappointed for no reason.



Hey Yemeth, I haven't tried co-op yet. So far, my MP experiences have been rather pleasant. The games connect fine (count down from 5). Since the game is not released yet and it's based on P2P set up, may be there's not enough player near you yet.

Someone should ask them about their cloud computing use.
 
patsu said:
I "know" U2 will be great but I can't believe it's that good yet. Don't want to be disappointed for no reason.



Hey Yemeth, I haven't tried co-op yet. So far, my MP experiences have been rather pleasant. The games connect fine (count down from 5). Since the game is not released yet and it's based on P2P set up, may be there's not enough player near you yet.

Someone should ask them about their cloud computing use.
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You wouldve played co-op if you had joined me already!
 
deepbrown said:
You wouldve played co-op if you had joined me already!
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Yeah well... by the time I sit down and read your XMB messages, it's usually end of working day for me (which should be sleeping hours for you). I leave my PS3 on during office hour to play soft classical music. BTW, I rearranged my office. This time my back is facing you guys when I work. :devilish:

nightshade said:
Street Date Broken:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbYCvonMAwQ

P.S.[Still not as early as Killzone 2..which prompted Sony India to ultimately release KZ2 in India 2 weeks before worldwide launch :) ]
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... which means I should stay away from U2 threads on untrusted fora. Some people may spoil it.
 
patsu said:
I "know" U2 will be great but I can't believe it's that good yet. Don't want to be disappointed for no reason.



Hey Yemeth, I haven't tried co-op yet. So far, my MP experiences have been rather pleasant. The games connect fine (count down from 5). Since the game is not released yet and it's based on P2P set up, may be there's not enough player near you yet.

Someone should ask them about their cloud computing use.
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Well, I have never seen that reviewer shower so much praise on a game before, and I know him, he is stricter than me while reviewing a game(except on some points where I nitpick more, like level design), so I am gussing it has to be good for him to be so happy about it :) ! Even I never thought it would get so much praise from him ;)
 
Shifty Geezer said:
Though I see you're point, I'm not sure it's a convincing argument. I think you'd have to give actual examples of where the single player exerience could be improved and where MP development (especially coop which I think is increasingly important this gen and going forwards) has held SP back.
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Resident Evil 5 is my poster child for a game where the integration of coop has massively infringed upon the single-player experience.
 
Rolf N said:
Resident Evil 5 is my poster child for a game where the integration of coop has massively infringed upon the single-player experience.
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Agreed. Which is why the Dog's went the other way. They divorced the co-op from the Single-player campaign, to make sure they could balance it only for one player. They could then take levels from the SP and make it into balanced co-op for two-three players.
 
Rolf N said:
Resident Evil 5 is my poster child for a game where the integration of coop has massively infringed upon the single-player experience.
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Okay, although I meant within U2. The way I see it, if the U2 solo campaign is exactly what they wanted, then no amount of investment could improve that. Yemeth's idea is that ND had a budget and divided it between different experiences, whereas it could well interpreted as $x million to create the single player and $y million for the multiplayer, and if they hadn't developed the multiplayer they'd have spent no more than $x million and achieved no more from the single player than they have done. Also the returns would be far less, as a good MP and coop title will have more appeal than a solo only game, so in essence if budgetting for expected ROI, you'd really want to spend less on a single player game than you could afford to spend on a package deal.

If RE5 is a showcase for how to mess up a single player experience by adding coop, U2 looks set to be a showcase for how to do it properly and offer both a top-rate solo experience that couldn't much be improved upon (within the expected niggles that different users have and the constraints of finite development times) alongside a top-rate coop and multiplayer game, thus disproving the idea that solo always has to sacrifice something to accomodate multiplayer.
 
Shifty Geezer said:
Okay, although I meant within U2. The way I see it, if the U2 solo campaign is exactly what they wanted, then no amount of investment could improve that. Yemeth's idea is that ND had a budget and divided it between different experiences, whereas it could well interpreted as $x million to create the single player and $y million for the multiplayer, and if they hadn't developed the multiplayer they'd have spent no more than $x million and achieved no more from the single player than they have done. Also the returns would be far less, as a good MP and coop title will have more appeal than a solo only game, so in essence if budgetting for expected ROI, you'd really want to spend less on a single player game than you could afford to spend on a package deal.

If RE5 is a showcase for how to mess up a single player experience by adding coop, U2 looks set to be a showcase for how to do it properly and offer both a top-rate solo experience that couldn't much be improved upon (within the expected niggles that different users have and the constraints of finite development times) alongside a top-rate coop and multiplayer game, thus disproving the idea that solo always has to sacrifice something to accomodate multiplayer.
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Well put.
 
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