[PS3] Uncharted 2

[patsu]

The first Uncharted was essentially a murder simulator IMHO, to the point of being oppressive. You have plausible and empathetic characters who then choose to kill wave upon wave of people without feeling any remorse or even pause and often for no better reason than they want some treasure. This differs from the average shooter where you have zero emotional attachment with the characters or the protagonist is not supposed to be someone you actually like. The more effort Naughty Dog puts into character development, the less it makes sense that Nathan Drake is going to want to wantonly murder hundreds of people (unless his behaviour is just a sham and he is supposed to be a "Dexter" like character).

Hmm... don't think that's entirely accurate. I don't know about "protagoist is not supposed to be someone you actually like". I certainly liked Master Chief in Marathon + Halo 1, Link in Zelda, Nathan in Uncharted, and many more.

In U1, I believe he did not know the island was infested with so many pirates to begin with. If he didn't fight back, the pirates and trained soldiers would have murdered him. He wanted to give up after captivity, but

Spoiler

found out Sully was still alive, and embarked on a rescue mission

. He's not squeaky clean, but he's not a cold-blooded murderer either. Dr. Jones most certainly killed a lot of people too.

The second one so far seems to weigh the killing sprees a bit better with the story and platform sections. I think it is still just a bit heavy on the mindless death and destruction but the pacing is good enough that I am not constantly wondering if Nathan suffers from a personality disorder.

U2 also introduced the stealth element. I think they only need to clean up a few dialogues when he knock people out. Again, if he didn't fight the private army back, the entire village and people around him would be dead. The only unreasonable part is in the museum where some guards were meleed to death unnecessarily. In U2, he wanted to give up again, but Shafer and Elena convinced him to stay on course for the greater good.


EDIT:

The more effort Naughty Dog puts into character development, the less it makes sense that Nathan Drake is going to want to wantonly murder hundreds of people (unless his behaviour is just a sham and he is supposed to be a "Dexter" like character).

So maybe they're going to have to start killing zombies or something that doesn't raise moral questions.

Probably not a good idea for video games which feature killing to raise moral questions either.

It could be the other way round. The more effort Naughty Dog puts into character development, the better they can refine Nathan, and the more consistently we can understand him.

The "Master Chief" in Marathon was poorly explained too.

 

[wco81]

He killed those Turkish guards because he saw Midnight Express.

 

[deathindustrial]

Hmm... don't think that's entirely accurate. I don't know about "protagonist is not supposed to be someone you actually like". I certainly liked Master Chief in Halo 1, Link in Zelda, Nathan in Uncharted, and many more.

Master Chief and Link are not realistic, empathetic characters in a contemporary setting.

Uncharted's mythos is fantastic but my impression anyway is that you are supposed to believe it could actually exist somewhere. Nathan is presented as a charming yet regular guy. His accomplices are equally genuine and this lends a role playing element here - the player is Nathan as opposed to Nathan being just a convenient control mechanism to let you blow up stuff and climb on things. Yet instead of deciding that the amount of murder required is not worth it or changing his tactics, he is happy to go about slaughtering wave after wave of guard (especially in the first Uncharted).

In the context of the game and setting, the guards (and to a lesser extent the pirates) of the first Uncharted are the equivalent of local cops. Nathan is the foreigner in most of these situations so he is apparently flying into a foreign locale to steal from and kill as many locals as possible. He's presented as a reluctant hero when much of the time he is acting like a full blown psychopath. He doesn't even have the excuse of being in the military, he just apparently is cool with killing hundreds of people if it means shiny stuff and getting to ride some jet skis.

=)

It's a game of course so mostly anything goes. My issue is just that the character development and acting is pretty decent in the Uncharted series and the apparent motivations and personalities of the characters seems to highly contradict their actions when the game goes into murder simulation mode. The original Uncharted suffered because of this since it basically meant you could not buy into the characters at all. Uncharted 2 seems to have pulled back a bit on the violence and is a better game for it.

IMHO of course.

Cheers

 

[patsu]

Master Chief and Link are not realistic, empathetic characters in a contemporary setting.

Is Indiana Jones realistic ? He killed a lot of people too, sometimes with a smirk on his face. I like him. A close friend like him so much that he named his first son Indiana (Indy).

Uncharted's mythos is fantastic but my impression anyway is that you are supposed to believe it could actually exist somewhere. Nathan is presented as a charming yet regular guy. His accomplices are equally genuine and this lends a role playing element here - the player is Nathan as opposed to Nathan being just a convenient control mechanism to let you blow up stuff and climb on things. Yet instead of deciding that the amount of murder required is not worth it or changing his tactics, he is happy to go about slaughtering wave after wave of guard (especially in the first Uncharted).

That's your play style though. I usually try stealth first. It seems that my Nathan is a lot less destructive than yours. I actually don't know if people here think they are Nathan when playing the game. For me, I only thought about staying alive throughout the game.

For people who care about these stuff, I suspect they may try the mercy approach first.

In the context of the game and setting, the guards (and to a lesser extent the pirates) of the first Uncharted are the equivalent of local cops. Nathan is the foreigner in most of these situations so he is apparently flying into a foreign locale to steal from and kill as many locals as possible. He's presented as a reluctant hero when much of the time he is acting like a full blown psychopath. He doesn't even have the excuse of being in the military, he just apparently is cool with killing hundreds of people if it means shiny stuff and getting to ride some jet skis.

The pirates are not local cop. Do you think Somalian pirates are local cops ? ([size=-2]What do you think pirates do for a living ?![/size]). In U1, they were on the island because the bad guy hired them.

The Turkish guards are the only exception. And the story did try to approach it softly, but the melee actions and dialogues didn't match up.

 

[deathindustrial]

Is Indiana Jones realistic ? He killed a lot of people too, sometimes with a smirk on his face.

I would say no because it is a historical piece with known state actors involved. It has been a while since I have seen any of the movies but from what I remember, he was usually in a semi-legitimatized siutation (fighting nazis or doing supposedly actual archeology). He also is a character from 30 years ago in the middle of the Rambo / Reagan era in the US. Hopefully there is at least a little more cultural awareness now?

That's your play style though. I usually try stealth first. It seems that my Nathan is a lot less destructive than yours. I actually don't know if people here think they are Nathan when playing the game. For me, I only thought about staying alive throughout the game.

Stealth wasn't available in the first game. In this game Nathan is apparently still killing everyone (snapping necks or throwing people off cliffs).

The pirates are not local cop. Do you think Somalian pirates are local cops ? They are on the island because the bad guy hired them.

Getting off topic but I do not have enough information to know really. There definitely is some sovereignty issues there (foreign destruction of their local fishery amongst others) and it seems like a lot of what is attributed to "pirates" is more a case of foreign parties getting caught taking advantage of a loose political situation or paying the price for previous abuses. I expect that the truth is far more convoluted, probably closer to the situation in the Philippines with the MILF (terrible acronym) and other guerrillas versus the local military - i.e. the "pirates" are both criminals and freedom fighters, cops and robbers.

Wikipedia has a reasonable article on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_Somalia

Check the "Effects and perceptions" section especially.

Cheers

 

[patsu]

I would say no because it is a historical piece with known state actors involved. It has been a while since I have seen any of the movies but from what I remember, he was usually in a semi-legitimatized siutation (fighting nazis or doing supposedly actual archeology). He also is a character from 30 years ago in the middle of the Rambo / Reagan era in the US. Hopefully there is at least a little more cultural awareness now?

Then I would say Nathan is not a realistic character either (I didn't know who Harrison Ford was when I first saw the Raiders of the Lost Ark, so the actor's status may have very little influence).

Few people have that kind of strength and courage to platform the way he does. The mythology aspect fantasizes his adventures, and further distances himself from reality. However ND tries to put in well-known history so that more people could relate to him and his deeds. They also made Nathan more like a regular dude, as opposed to a trained specialist.

Stealth wasn't available in the first game. In this game Nathan is apparently still killing everyone (snapping necks or throwing people off cliffs).

Yap, those are the 2 melee moves I think they should be more sensitive about. They are suitable for some situations but not all.

Getting off topic but I do not have enough information to know really. There definitely is some sovereignty issues there (foreign destruction of their local fishery amongst others) and it seems like a lot of what is attributed to "pirates" is more a case of foreign parties getting caught taking advantage of a loose political situation or paying the price for previous abuses. I expect that the truth is far more convoluted, probably closer to the situation in the Philippines with the MILF (terrible acronym) and other guerrillas versus the local military - i.e. the "pirates" are both criminals and freedom fighters, cops and robbers.

In U1, they were straight up pirates. They saw Nate and opened fire. They set up booby traps. They were hired by the bad guy (as the cutscenes revealed later). They were not local cops.

Spoiler

Nate seemed to know Eddie Rajah and ended up fighting side-by-side with him in U1, until Eddie's last moment.

Remember,

Spoiler

Nate and Elena's plane was shot down by the pirates with rocket launcher. They were stranded on the island. Nate was looking for Elena and a boat to get out.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Also Nate was following his family roots, and the treasure belonged to his family in theory, although Francis Drake probably got it in the first place with little application of scruples!

 

[Dregun]

I like the fact that we can argue about the character of Nathan Drake instead of mechanics of the game. It really is a great game and the fact that many of us have a certain view point of how Nate should act/feel does a lot to show you the strides ND have made to raise this series.

I'll assume many of you have seen the movie Taken, in that movie you wanted Liam to kill EVERYONE who got in his way of finding his daughter. It was a great ride sitting in the theater and routing for him to snap necks and shoot people. The difference is the main character in Taken had a real drive, a strong purpose to kill as many people as possible and as quickly as possible as it was the only way to save his daughter.

Nathan Drake does not have that, further still they set him up in the beginning to want to preserve life (but fails when he throws them off cliffs and breaks necks). Just my opinion but if they gave Nathan a reason for hating anyone who stands in his way maybe the player will pick up on that and connect more with Nathan as they rack up the kills.

I think Naughty Dog should give us more control over the stealth moves used in ND, instead of just pressing [ ] and allowing the game to randomly pick the attack used why not have a brief second where you the player can press a direction on the D-Pad to pick the type. Have 4 different types of stealth attacks and each type has random methods of performing that attack. In competitive modes this feature could be disabled of course and it would just be the most aggressive attack possible.

1st - Aggressive = Breaking Necks
2nd - Semi- aggressive - Bashing their head into objects
3rd - Docile - Hitting them over the head to knock them out
4th - Very Docile - Suffocating them to knock them out

If I need to take out a security guard who's only fault is that he is working that night at the museum, I see no need to break his neck or bash his head in. Yet if a henchman is standing their with an AK-47 with orders to shoot on site it would be hard for me to just suffocate him.

Another thing I think they should do in the next UC is have a bunch of the regular henchman we see responsible for doing something really bad. Maybe have a bunch of villagers lined up against a wall and about 30-40 henchman ordered to spray them all. I think that image would stay with the player long enough that when we kill a henchman we hope it was one of the ones who did such a heinous act.

I guess I'm just into Drama, I'm always saying how a TV show or movie would have been better if someone died at the end.

 

[patsu]

Nathan Drake does not have that, further still they set him up in the beginning to want to preserve life (but fails when he throws them off cliffs and breaks necks). Just my opinion but if they gave Nathan a reason for hating anyone who stands in his way maybe the player will pick up on that and connect more with Nathan as they rack up the kills.

ND may need a "higher level" drive. Otherwise, they will have to think of a different killing reason in every sequel (which may be tiring after a while). Or they could give us more ways to complete the objective, like improve the stealth as you mentioned below:

I think Naughty Dog should give us more control over the stealth moves used in ND, instead of just pressing [ ] and allowing the game to randomly pick the attack used why not have a brief second where you the player can press a direction on the D-Pad to pick the type. Have 4 different types of stealth attacks and each type has random methods of performing that attack. In competitive modes this feature could be disabled of course and it would just be the most aggressive attack possible.

1st - Aggressive = Breaking Necks
2nd - Semi- aggressive - Bashing their head into objects
3rd - Docile - Hitting them over the head to knock them out
4th - Very Docile - Suffocating them to knock them out

Are the icon buttons pressure sensitive ? If so, they can also use finger pressure to discern our intention. Otherwise, yeah some sort of button combo will be needed.

Another thing I think they should do in the next UC is have a bunch of the regular henchman we see responsible for doing something really bad. Maybe have a bunch of villagers lined up against a wall and about 30-40 henchman ordered to spray them all. I think that image would stay with the player long enough that when we kill a henchman we hope it was one of the ones who did such a heinous act.

I guess I'm just into Drama, I'm always saying how a TV show or movie would have been better if someone died at the end.

They sort of did that in U2 though. The massacre of the village is an example.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yes, the village massacre illustrated it. And, rather weakly, Lazarovic was introduced as a meglomaniac psychopathic butcher. So it was established in typical Hollywood tradition that Lazarovic and his henchmen were 'bad' and hence open pickings. The village scene confirmed this, but it was pointed out before hand. However, it'd have been better storytelling to show this instead of tell it (although personally I feel they 'they're bad so it's okay to kill them' philosophy is responsible for so many of the world's atrocities, it's really a toxic concept that needs to be addressed, rather than accepted).

In U1, the pirates started into Drake with their shooting, so it was as much self-defense on his part as he looked for his ancestral treasure. Which by my reckoning is on the same moral level as most of Hollywood's massacres, maybe even more justified.

 

[patsu]

http://playstation.joystiq.com/2010/01/05/uncharted-2-gets-big-multiplayer-site-update/

Just before the clock struck midnight to round out the last decade, Naughty Dog unveiled (and released) a major overhaul to its online stat tracking for Uncharted 2: Among Thieves. The game's new stat display digs let us get down and dirty into the tiniest little details. Need to know your kill/death ratio, and your lifetime loot stockpile, and see how you compare to the entire global average on a specific map? Done. Looking for detailed breakdowns of previous multiplayer showdowns? Covered.

...

 

[Arwin]

Pretty neat ...

 

[patsu]

It works on Windows IE8 but doesn't work on Safari on Snowleopard. On my MacBook, the PSN login system does not refresh the screen after I authenticated successfully against PSN.

 

[Arwin]

It works on Windows IE8 but doesn't work on Safari on Snowleopard. On my MacBook, the PSN login system does not refresh the screen after I authenticated successfully against PSN.

Works fine on Google Chrome though ... maybe Firefox on Snowleopard?

 

[patsu]

Cool, FireFox on Snowleopard works. May be it's a HTTP response header or JavaScript compatibility issue (between Safari and PSN login page).

 

[Kittonwy]

I like the fact that we can argue about the character of Nathan Drake instead of mechanics of the game. It really is a great game and the fact that many of us have a certain view point of how Nate should act/feel does a lot to show you the strides ND have made to raise this series.

I'll assume many of you have seen the movie Taken, in that movie you wanted Liam to kill EVERYONE who got in his way of finding his daughter. It was a great ride sitting in the theater and routing for him to snap necks and shoot people. The difference is the main character in Taken had a real drive, a strong purpose to kill as many people as possible and as quickly as possible as it was the only way to save his daughter.

Nathan Drake does not have that, further still they set him up in the beginning to want to preserve life (but fails when he throws them off cliffs and breaks necks). Just my opinion but if they gave Nathan a reason for hating anyone who stands in his way maybe the player will pick up on that and connect more with Nathan as they rack up the kills.

I think Naughty Dog should give us more control over the stealth moves used in ND, instead of just pressing [ ] and allowing the game to randomly pick the attack used why not have a brief second where you the player can press a direction on the D-Pad to pick the type. Have 4 different types of stealth attacks and each type has random methods of performing that attack. In competitive modes this feature could be disabled of course and it would just be the most aggressive attack possible.

1st - Aggressive = Breaking Necks
2nd - Semi- aggressive - Bashing their head into objects
3rd - Docile - Hitting them over the head to knock them out
4th - Very Docile - Suffocating them to knock them out

If I need to take out a security guard who's only fault is that he is working that night at the museum, I see no need to break his neck or bash his head in. Yet if a henchman is standing their with an AK-47 with orders to shoot on site it would be hard for me to just suffocate him.

Another thing I think they should do in the next UC is have a bunch of the regular henchman we see responsible for doing something really bad. Maybe have a bunch of villagers lined up against a wall and about 30-40 henchman ordered to spray them all. I think that image would stay with the player long enough that when we kill a henchman we hope it was one of the ones who did such a heinous act.

I guess I'm just into Drama, I'm always saying how a TV show or movie would have been better if someone died at the end.

It wouldn't work, d-pad is already used for weapon selection, not to mention sneaking up behind an enemy and having to "select the method" is tedious and unintuitive.

 

[Kittonwy]

Stealth wasn't available in the first game. In this game Nathan is apparently still killing everyone (snapping necks or throwing people off cliffs).

Stealth was available in the first game, you can dispatch pirates by jumping on their backs and snapping their necks quietly.

 

[Arwin]

Cool, FireFox on Snowleopard works. May be it's a HTTP response header or JavaScript compatibility issue (between Safari and PSN login page).

I came up with it because I was looking at an old iBook the other day and noticed that its user preferred Firefox over Safari, which was surprising for me coming from a big Mac fan as he was, but apparently Firefox is just much more compatible with all sorts of stuff still.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It works on Windows IE8 but doesn't work on Safari on Snowleopard. On my MacBook, the PSN login system does not refresh the screen after I authenticated successfully against PSN.

PSN was suffering all kinds of poop in the UK at least. Took us the best part of an hour/hour and a half to play some coop last night. Friend would be logged in and I could see him but he couldn't see me. He could join my party and it'd get listed, but his PS3 would tell him he couldn't join. He could log onto PSN through the website and we wouldn't appear, whereas I couldn't even log on, being told PSN was undergoing maintenance.

Trying now, I can log onto the PSN page quickly and without problem. So maybe try again?

 

[Billy Idol]

Played yesterday some more MP...really funny and grea (my young cousing who visited me wants this game now as well): only complain...if you start playing, the initial game searching can take some time...luckily, if you are in and played a game, the next game search is usually fast.

The best thing to me: there is so much variety that it did not get boring, even after 5 hours straight playing with my cousin.

What is sad: it seems that only 8k-9k people are playing...this game deserves really more players

Yesterday, I realized how good the 'village' mp map looks (the one with the rain and the tank) - amazing and astounding, especially for beeing online with 10 people running around!

Btw, it seems to me that the shotgun is somewhat overpowerd or even glitchy?? I can run around with the shotgun, I shoot from the hip and it seems that I am either a marksman or there is some autoaim involved, because I did not miss one shot (and it is a one shot kill in close range!)...after a while it seems somehow lame to use the shotgun and I switched to the M4