PS3: Phil Harrison addresses the real-time vs CGI issue

[Laa-Yosh]

Laa-Yosh, would not the CELL be a big aid in generating all the particles? I know fluid dynamic simulations are extremely intense, but could say 100GFLOPs of power being dedicated to particles be able to turn that kind of partles out? Or how much reduced would that much power produce?

I don't have experience with fluid simulations. But generally high quality stuff is sent to the renderfarm or gets calculated over the night on the artist's workstation. We're talking about at least a few hours of processing for a few-second long shot at 25fps for stuff like cloth, hair, rigid body dynamics etc.
Let's assume that our feeble machines are only 8 GFLOPS, as said by Sony; and that we need one hour of calculation for 1 second. This requires a 60-fold speedup to get it realtime, so we'd need 8*60, roughly 500 GFLOPS of CPU power for that single part of the scene only. About the same goes for rendering volumetrics and raytracing, render times go beyond 60 minutes on the average machine today.
Even if you'd scale down the quality, 50 or even GFLOPS are still far too much to dedicate to a single element of the game's visuals, when you want AI, physics for the vehicles, and so on...

Oh, and all the above are for working with double precision floats most of the time, as far as I know.

 

[mckmas8808]

Not to disrespect you Laa-Yosh and others that believe him, but I would rather believe a Sony executive than you anyday. But wait and see. Sony finds a way to shut the non believer up.

Kevin P. on G4 said that if Sony could make the Killzone demo in real-time that Xbox 360 would be doomed. Do you agree Laa-Yosh and Dr. Evil?

 

[Laa-Yosh]

We must have the different trailers, because this is defiantly not the parts I was talking about.

The first screenshot is at 00:28, it's the same long shot that goes on until 00:31. I see no quality difference, BTW.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Not to disrespect you Laa-Yosh and others that believe him, but I would rather believe a Sony executive than you anyday. But wait and see. Sony finds a way to shut the non believer up.

Believing a marketing person who has a clear interest in selling you their product, rather than someone who'll probably have nothing to do with you?

And Sony can never convince me, I have my reasons for this.

Kevin P. on G4 said that if Sony could make the Killzone demo in real-time that Xbox 360 would be doomed. Do you agree Laa-Yosh and Dr. Evil?

Absolutely.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

And let's make this clear, I'm not willing to downplay the next gen consoles, or Guerilla or you guys. It's just that these two trailers are so far beyond what's possible to render in real time that it's going to set impossibly high expectations if someone believes them to be real. And I despise Sony for using people's lack of insight to their advantage.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

It least you and Laa-Yosh have research on your side other than just saying this can or cannot be realtime based on abstract judgement.

It's not really research, but rather about 5 years of making a living from producing 3D rendered cinematics...

 

[DuckThor Evil]

up.

Kevin P. on G4 said that if Sony could make the Killzone demo in real-time that Xbox 360 would be doomed. Do you agree Laa-Yosh and Dr. Evil?

Maybe, but since it ain't going to happen it' a moot point, by the way did you see that Getaway link I posted?. I'm sure we are going to see similar drop in quality for Killzone and Motor Storm when they get released, sad thing about it is that you and people like you are probably still going to claim that it looks the same as those prerendered movies, you guys just don't understand that those kind of visual are not possible on PS3 and on top of that use farm boy logic to argue with people who know lot more than you about computer graphics...It's disgusting!. On that note I must say that I myself don't know too much about that, but even I know for sure, that those games are not going to look like that when they are coming out. And I trust 100% more people who know about computer graphics and who are not biased in any way, than Sony executive who is waging a war against an enemy. And to say otherwise sounds really bizarre to me.

 

[Geeforcer]

We must have the different trailers, because this is defiantly not the parts I was talking about.

The first screenshot is at 00:28, it's the same long shot that goes on until 00:31. I see no quality difference, BTW.

I am very sorry - I incorrectly timed part of the trailer I was talking about. The one I was referring to is 32-34 seconds. Again, my bad.

 

[Xenus]

Well then I might change my opinion, not!!

But I'd much rather believe a person with 3d experience rather than marketing speak unless Deono shows up and starts making comments but that wouldn't be professional would it?

 

[jvd]

I've already posted that some of it can be real time or touched up real time . Like when the two ships land and one is blown up ? That i can see being real time . Not much going on except two detailed ships and one gets blwon up .

But most of it looks like cgi

 

[passby]

Thank you Laa-Yosh for the valueble feedback and comments. It was very educational.

 

[Josh378]

well see guys. Sony does have another show at TGS, and they do have to show up. If more games start to look like the KZ demo, then we have here a monster. But the main thing is, what is the RSX tech is and what can it do?

We'll see, we have nearly 12 months of waiting...somthing will have to give...until then, I'll just nod my head at the Sony rep and agree with him to a certain amount of belief...until proven otherwise...

-Josh378

 

[blakjedi]

Not to disrespect you Laa-Yosh and others that believe him, but I would rather believe a Sony executive than you anyday. But wait and see. Sony finds a way to shut the non believer up.

Kevin P. on G4 said that if Sony could make the Killzone demo in real-time that Xbox 360 would be doomed. Do you agree Laa-Yosh and Dr. Evil?

I disagree. but we've gone over this time and again.. their is nothing that has been shown on any system that neither system can't do.. Killzone 1 was supposed to ba a Halo killer... if you want to compare apples to apples.. lets wait for Halo 3 versus Killzone... probabaly no comparison then .... Killzone is doable on 360 just about as easily as on Ps3.

Which is NOT.

 

[MechanizedDeath]

Now Phil Harrison just told Morgan Webb that the KZ footage was "all game engine or done to spec" and that "it's just scratching the surface."

Webb: "So I'll be playing that in my living room?"

Harrison: "Absolutely."

not in what i wa watching .

Which was morgan and that guy

That is word-for-word what he said. She asked him the most direct question possible about it, and he said straight up, "yes". So I think we should end the debate, and if the final product doesn't match up, you can put his feet to the flames next year. Afterall, there's gonna be plenty of video evidence of the "lie" now. Personally, I don't know why he'd lie to blatantly. Before she asked about playing it in her living room, Phil said "it's just scratching the surface." Why would Sony bother releasing vids that they'll never match? That's pretty stupid IMO.

IMO, the only reason people don't believe it is b/c it looked so good. If it looked like crap and was actually prerendered, then no one would have a problem with it. But the mere fact that it looked better than anything else somehow makes it invalid? Seems silly IMO. BTW, they showed Heavenly Sword, and in proper VGA resolutions, it looke INCREDIBLE. Now we know that's realtime b/c DeanoC has vouched for it. Is it that great a drop from Killzone2? When you see it on tv, I think you have to admit that there's a very real possibility that Killzone2 will end up that good. Maybe not the motion blur, maybe not some of the details in lighting, but those are minor aspects to the demo we saw. Again, just b/c it looks incredible doesn't mean it's not credible. PEACE.

 

[mckmas8808]

Exactly Josh thats what I'm doing. Acert had a great point in making a PR only thread. At TGS we can rehash all of this talk from the very knowledgeable Laa-Yosh.

Laa-Yosh I can understand where you are coming from. Its obvious that your expirence is great, but you personally don't know and haven't programmed or designed for a PS3 game. If two Sony execs say that its real, well then its real.

Everybody knows that Deanoc is a real develper that actually works for a company that is making a PS3 game. His game is not far behind Killzone. Yeah it might not be as totally impressive yet its really not that far off. Even his company showed a video a what the game will look like. But wait!! We believe him. Why, because we should. It obvious that what we seen in Heavenly Sword could easily be done in real-time.

What if Deanco worked for Guerilla? Would you believe him then? What if he personally told us that the Killzone demo was real.

 

[Acert93]

Well, it is official. I am keeping track of all the PR claims

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=526331#526331

So if mckmas8808 is right he can tell everyone how honest Sony is. If he is proven wrong he will be reminded of the quote that he believes the Sony PR

 

[Josh378]

Now if the PR guy is WRONG, we'll visit his house and burn down his PS3 stuff to the ground and then have him castrated on G4 for lying...

-Josh378

 

[Geeforcer]

Just because execs say something, doesn't mean its true. Need I remind everyone of the Xbox Raven "demo"? First, we were debating if it was real-time. Eventually, everyone agreed that it was pre-rendered and the debate shifted to where it is a "good approximation" of console’s abilities. In the end, it became clear that the demo was quite a bit beyond the hardware capabilities.

 

[jvd]

That is word-for-word what he said.

No its not , unless i ws watching morgan do an interview with another person from the killzone team . The exchange was much longer than what was writen. I was watching it when they replayed it and i'm pretty sure they replay it at midnight so i will watch it again and again post what they say

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Just because execs say something, doesn't mean its true. Need I remind everyone of the Xbox Raven "demo"? First, we were debating if it was real-time. Eventually, everyone agreed that it was pre-rendered and the debate shifted to where it is a "good approximation" of console’s abilities. In the end, it became clear that the demo was quite a bit beyond the hardware capabilities.

Agreed 100%
Sony did say few years back that getaway is going to look like in those pics in my link on previous page, those came from Sony Europe, how is this situation now different?. If they fooled us back then, why should we trust them completely now?.