PS3 Open Platform - some big news

[Carl B]

And why Sony had to fuck up this again ? WHY, WHY WHY ? Why there is just 197 MB available for Linux. ?!?! Firmware is inside flash, why you need to takeaway 60 MB of RAM ?!??!? I understand need the for so called "virtual mode", but why the hell there needs to be "full game os" on background?

Unless this changes, Sony has once again managed fuck things up. For anything more than trivial, you need all the memory you can get.

This sort of ranting seems a little out of line...

How can you complain that the PS3 is 'fucked up' in terms of Linux? That it runs it in a free and open way at *all* puts it well well ahead of many. Yeah, obviously we want more memory. But unfortunately, the reality is that the price has to work in the context of a mass consumer item, and even as it is, they are losing a lot of money per unit.

You have to be reasonable. Sony gave you a gaming console with PC functionality... not the other way around.

 

[patsu]

That's correct. Things should improve from here onwards

I hope GameOS is still running with sufficient space so that we can do something interesting and unique on PS3 (e.g., toggle or share between 2 OS).

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Unless this changes, Sony has once again managed fuck things up. For anything more than trivial, you need all the memory you can get.

I'm not sure how true that is. It depends how much the applications take up. My PC here uses 217 MB running no programs. If I open a browser, music player, folder of pictures with thumbnails, Word with a 100k word document, and PaintshopPro with moderate sized picture, that goes up to 260 MB.

For some stuff, like intensive Photoshopping or video editing, or docs with loads of pictures, that RAM will get gobbled up. On the whole though, the system should be very usable for most ordinary tasks, and if you're really being that hard-core in your use of the system, chances are you'd be better off using a PC anyway - this isn't a professional workstation!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

That's correct. Things should improve from here onwards

I hope GameOS is still running with sufficient space so that we can do something interesting and unique on PS3 (e.g., toggle or share between 2 OS).

what would be very cool IMO is to have the GameOS able to overlay different OSes or applications, and have an Amiga-like pull down screen. Being able to pull down the XMB screen and see Linux in the background would just be funky in a nostalgic sort of way!

 

[eSa]

what would be very cool IMO is to have the GameOS able to overlay different OSes or applications, and have an Amiga-like pull down screen. Being able to pull down the XMB screen and see Linux in the background would just be funky in a nostalgic sort of way!

I don't agree. Amiga was cool, all those "split windows" with several different videomodes in same screen... But still, in case of PS3, I think they really should just remove the whole game os from background. If that is possible. I don't see what good the constant possibility to swap between Linux and PS3OS could be. Also, do you all think that Sony is gonna let Linux apps to access game os ?! Even calls throught well defined RPC (or similar paradigm) it sounds somewhat dangerous.

I understand that this is just console, but if Sony really would like to piss M$ of they should just push out PS3 with more RAM... PS3 that comes with factory installed Linux on HD with all the basic apps and some clean GUI... Maybe even with DBV tuner and possibility to record to HD. With about the same price. That could be killer combo.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I don't agree. Amiga was cool, all those "split windows" with several different videomodes in same screen... But still, in case of PS3, I think they really should just remove the whole game os from background. If that is possible. I don't see what good the constant possibility to swap between Linux and PS3OS could be.

PS3 that comes with factory installed Linux on HD with all the basic apps and some clean GUI... Maybe even with DBV tuner and possibility to record to HD. With about the same price. That could be killer combo.

IMO those features should come in the GameOS, and that's why it ought to multitask. While using Linux, the PS3 ought to provide background operation to download files, rip movies, copy to Flash devices, etc. These functions shouldn't be Linux based because of the complexity of the interface. The XMB provides a simplified way to do common entertainment+media tasks without confusing the masses. This is a CE device, to be operated like a CE device. Using Linux for these functions is overkill, like having to use a Linux WIMP interface to drive a DVD player and a TV!

Regarding the availibility of RAM (or lack of it) what do you expect PS3 Linux to be used for where that RAM become a limiting factor and a swap-file is unusable? I've never had a PC run out of memory and stop being able to do things. I've had it slow down as the HDD's thrashed, but that's working with large amounts of data, such as image manipulation with multiple highres images open, layers, etc. or docs with lots of highres photos. As I said before, PS3 isn't a workstation, and anyone expecting to use it as such needs to be reminded of it's intended function. Hoping for 512 MB XDR for a BRD player+music player_games player+web browser, is a bit silly. That's adding loads of cost for no benefit in 99% of intended tasks. 512 MB XDR isn't going to benefit BRD playback, web browsing, or games where it can't be used for compatibility with older PS3s. For those desperate for a Cell based Linux box, I think you'd have more luck petioning Sony for a Cell Workstation device, rather than trying to turn a PS3 CE device into a workstation.

 

[Arwin]

I think a lot depends on how efficiently the GDDR3 is used. Most of the PCs I work on still have 256MB of RAM, and it's enough for a lot of the tasks I do. The PS3 is a lot faster than any of them (my fastest PC - at home anyway - is an AMD 1800+ XP), and has very nice hardware. If E17 (or other desktops) can work so that as much of its graphics are loaded into GDDR exclusively, that should help out quite a lot.

A key factor is going to be whether or not we are going to get SPE accelleration. Because if we are going towards streaming algorithms for a lot of the stuff we do that uses a lot of memory currently, that could save plenty of memory. It may take a while, but I do think there are a lot of coders interested in getting stuff done on the Cell.

I do think we will see PS3s with higher memory configurations down the road, if Linux on PS3 takes off sufficiently. But for the most important stuff, the 200MB should do, especially if the GDDR memory isn't put to waste. I think Sony is going to want the PS3 to take off in this respect seriously at the point where the hardware is at its brake even point - i.e. when they don't make massive losses on it.

I also agree that it could be cool to have the GameOS ready to jump into action while you are running Linux, as if Linux was just an application you are running, and the GameOS can still inform you of events like messages or friends coming online, but maybe they should make it optional eventually and also allow for Linux to take over the system completely (except maybe some protection stuff, but that should be possible with very little memory).

Right now though, I'm still stoked that Linux works at all. I'm looking forward to seeing some benchmarks of how it is now, so that we can see how things are progressing as developers start supporting it with more and more specific and optimised drivers.

The idea that I could be programming routines for the Cell processor myself under Linux on the PS3 is very exciting. Even if the RSX weren't available to me, that would already be a cool first step. Of course, I am still hoping very much for OpenGL ES drivers at the very least.

 

[Chandler55]

what the heck, since when was the main CPU of PS3 dual core?? nice

 

[patsu]

I was wondering about that too... may be the 2 hardware threads in the PPU ?

 

[Arwin]

I was wondering about that too... may be the 2 hardware threads in the PPU ?

That's exactly it.

 

[Titanio]

The Faceless Master on GAF pointed this out. It's the first video I've seen of Fedora on PS3 - incidentally shows a NES emulator running under it (naughty! ). Also shows the command-line boot from Fedora into the GameOS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIWwcGCI_nY

 

[bobthebub]

The camera moves away at some key moments and I couldn't make out anything on screen during the fedora part that proved it was running on a PS3, could well be fake.

Hope not though.

 

[Arwin]

Heh - with all this running on an SDtv that looks really weird, but then again very suitable for the NES emulator ...

 

[Titanio]

The camera moves away at some key moments and I couldn't make out anything on screen during the fedora part that proved it was running on a PS3, could well be fake.

Hope not though.

Possibly, but I doubt it, somehow. There are PPC emulators out there that shouldn't be too difficult to get up and running.

 

[MfA]

A key factor is going to be whether or not we are going to get SPE accelleration.

If you mean whether or not you can use the SPEs from your own code, then yes ... that works out of the box.

 

[SPM]

A thought about 197MB PS3 Linux RAM limit

One way of mitigating the 197MB linux RAM limit is to run a RAMDISK program using the GDDR RAM for swap space in a 197MB RAMDISK. This will mean that instead of paging to the hard drive, you page to the RAMDISK. You can do this with Linux right now, but there is no point because if you have the RAM for the RAMDISK, you might as well keep memory in RAM rather than swapping it out. On the other hand if Cell only has direct access only to XDR but RSX can transfer GDDR memory on request, this makes sense. This will require a re-written Linux ramdisk program which requests RSX to do the transfer.

The overall speed of PS3 Linux with RAMDISK running in GDDR should be nearly as good as having 394MB RAM, and should overcome any issues with running multiple concurrent large simultaneous Linux applications.

 

[PeterT]

Yes, but that would require some kind of access to RSX, preferably somewhat low-level. Which we don't have yet, and no confirmation of ever getting.

The principle was discussed in detail here already a month or so ago.

 

[SPM]

Yes, but that would require some kind of access to RSX, preferably somewhat low-level. Which we don't have yet, and no confirmation of ever getting.

The principle was discussed in detail here already a month or so ago.

Sony may be reluctant to provide access to RSX on the grounds that developers may write Linux games that compete with their franchised ones. However they can still provide controlled access to the RSX. All they need to provide is a limited API in DRM protected GameOS that allows Linux to send and receive data from RSX.

Another useful thing Sony could provide is a 3D accelerated X-server (preferably compiz/beryl compatible) running in DRM protected space which could display Linux applications and initiate and display GameOS applications like movies or the browser on the Linux desktop at the same time. They could limit the acceleration to the limited OpenGL features used by compiz/beryl if they wanted to restrict games on Linux.

Maybe it is a question of bombarding Sony with requests until we get these, and while we are at it ask Sony to push Realmedia and Macromedia to peovide shockwave, realplayer and flashplayer binary firefox plugins for PPC Linux.

 

[crazygambit]

Linux Benchmarks

I haven't seen this posted. Looks interesting, of course I'm not sure what the numbers mean considering it's probably running only on the PPE without even touching the SPEs.

http://www.geekpatrol.ca/2006/11/playstation-3-performance/

 

[Rangers]

I haven't seen this posted. Looks interesting, of course I'm not sure what the numbers mean considering it's probably running only on the PPE without even touching the SPEs.

http://www.geekpatrol.ca/2006/11/playstation-3-performance/

Huh, that's fascinating.

I guess we can say then, that the CELL PPE and the Xbox360 cores by extension, perform somewhat like a 1.6 GHZ G5 in general computing?

That's actually better than I thought. Those chips have long been pegged with such terms as "twice the Xbox1 CPU". This is in line with that, if not better.

Fascinating.
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