Is linux dead as a viable OS on PS3?

[edepot]

Ok, I think someone has to come in and expose the problems with the current YDL on PS3. I don't think it is a problem with the number of active users, it is the number of engaged users. With 40 million PS3 that allows installation of linux, I think the main problem has to do with ease of use and usability. Most times when things are complex, someone will come in and provide a simpler solution. But with PS3 linux, I think it is stuck in a bind. Perhaps it is because of the proprietary nature of the hardware that is preventing advancement in ease of use, but I am not sure now because the iPhone has a separate homebrew store setup that makes installing and creating apps for it much easier (and allows developers to profit from it).

Why doesn't the PS3 have something on par with Cydia? All PS3 are same, just like the iPhone. There is a free SDK from IBM to build software. There are more PS3 than iPhones (I think they are very close in numbers at least). Why hasn't someone come in and try to profit from making a simple way for developers to put up applications on it to sell? Does applications must only run from the XMB side to be worth the effort? If yes, maybe that is the reason why there are not much engaged users for PS3 linux. Perhaps only 10 percent of the PS3 owners ever attempt to use the linux partition (which would result in 4 millions users). The population should be increasing because the number of users are growing each day.

I think more work has to be put in to make the linux partition easier for the PS3 user. Maybe make a front end for it so it resembles the XMB or iPhone interface, and let all the background command line be hidden. That way regular users are not horrified at the complexity of installing and uninstalling software on the PS3. Just look at posts of users trying to get software installed. Mostly Fedora 11 programs on Fedora 6 OS. Can you imagine the large number of people giving up on an operating system because it has an unfriendly install process? The success rate is terrible. I think the main problem is similar to trying to get support for applications built for Vista, but is using Windows 95 as a base. (Fedora 11=Vista, YDL6.2=Win95). Maybe the problem is that YDL6.2 is not on the bleeding edge of operating systems.

The way to fix this is to get someone to create a ps3BleedingEdge.repo and start upgrading to the latest and greatest stuff that works on the PS3. Don't worry about protecting the YDL base, but worry about what latest version of software works on the PS3. I've read that the YDL6.2 is based on Fedora 6. If that is the case, the PS3 linux is 5 generations behind. Of course applications built for the latest Fedora 11 would have problems on Fedora 6. PS3BleedingEdge.repo should concentrate on swapping everything that is possible from under YDL (and can get away with it) so that the latest software can get installed. The kernel does not have too much attachments to external libraries, so this should not be a big problem. Even if it does have a problem, the kernel can be swapped as well. But allow doing it from a YDL6.2 installation (because that is where the majority of the users are coming in from). Perhaps the emergeance of a separate PS3 yum repo just for this purpose would solve this problem (but keep PS3bodega.repo for those who just want to surf the web.)

The next step would be to get the interface much user friendly for applications. XMB, iPhone, whatever, it would be a simple GUI layer above linux. Can you imagine what would happen if someone created a front end that resembles the iPhone or XMB on top of yellowdog linux? It would take off and lots of youtube videos will show up and maybe a big community will be created dedicated to it (wishful thinking?). Have an easy front end like how the Cydia uses Debian APT to store apps. Perhaps a PS3cydia that uses yum but with a much simpler graphical interface that allows easy install and creation of software for developers (including those that would like to get paid for their work). There is profit to be made if it is useful enough like Cydia is making a profit now.

Once this is setup, the number of engaged users will increase to the point where enough people would contribute to the hardware acceleration (via SPE or RSX hack) such that any limitations of the PS3 would be resolved as a faster pace. The entrance exam is too difficult at this moment (the benefits are not great enough for engaging users or developers). But unless this can be achieved. Linux will be relegated to unimportance unless devices supporting linux learns from apple and start putting something nice on top of it (not interpreted of course, as the devices are too slow the way they are).

 

[grandmaster]

I see the problems as follows and I think it tallies with a lot of what you said:

1. Installation is a pain
2. Actually selecting and loading Linux is a pain
3. Performance doesn't actually seem to be that good - it's not going to tempt any one away from Windows

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Perhaps only 10 percent of the PS3 owners ever attempt to use the linux partition (which would result in 4 millions users).

There are about 24 million PS3s out there and I think people trying Linux on the PS3 is way less than 10%.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If Linux came preinstalled and readily accessible, I imagine the situation might well be different. Especially if there was a market produced as a result. However the current situation is like iPhone laucnhging without any app store or capability unless users jump through secret hoops to get it. In which case anyone writing an iPhone app would release it to a barren wasteland and, to no surprise, wouldn't bother in the end.

Linux isn't dead as a viable OS for PS3, but it's a niche just like real Linux. It's for geeks, not console owners. Even your simple explanation above has the Linux nonsense of 'repo's and 'yum' and unnecessary confusion. PS3 really needed a proper PSOS that is accessible from the XMB, simplified to be user friendly without any need for a huge glossary of jargon, came with useful applications preinstalled and ready to use, and offered a commercial path for developers, if it was ever to take off. As it is, Linux won't ever develop IMO. Why should anyone target the PS3 platform when their labours directed at Windows or iPhone or whatever will offer a chance at financial returns?

 

[patsu]

Amen. Viable for what segment of users ?

FixStar is building a business deploying PS3 Linux for specialized business apps.

If it's for general consumer use, then try the GameOS. The Linux install does not make money for Sony, so there is no incentive to make it better/easier.

If it's for the Linux and R&D community, then they already know how to google:
See http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/fedora-ppc/2009-June/001155.html for PS3 Fedora 11 install instructions. I use PS3 Linux occasionally when my laptop is occupied.

Besides, in today's world, what Arwin did here may make more sense.


The real problem is SPU optimization, which is not unique to PS3 Linux. Few people know how to do it. I guess that's why Sony started the PS3 academic program: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=54744

 

[Shifty Geezer]

An XMB app store with open Cell development might get interest. If people could buy over PSN using their existing PSN wallets, the barrier would be very reduced over a 3rd party independent sales channel.

 

[Arwin]

This is both a complex matter and it isn't. I'll list the basic pros and cons, and correct some of your misconceptions:

1. YDL 6.2 is based on Red Hat, not Fedora. It's pretty up-to-date, if you look at the kernel build.

2. It's not hard to install, provided you have the disc. The main problems are basically having to set up a Linux partition - for this you need to backup everything, then reformat your drive. There isn't going to be an easy work around for this, but it's the major inhibitor. If you could dynamically add a partition using some of your remaining free space, then installation would become relatively painless. The next, much more smaller thing, is having a Linux install disc. Right now you need to download it on PC and burn it. If there was an easier way to do it from the PS3 itself, that would help, but you could also just make it easier to get a disc with Linux on it (maybe include it with the PS3 - but imagine the helpdesk support required ).

Once you have the partition and the disc, it's like 1) Put the Linux disc in 2) Choose Install Other OS 3) Reboot. From then on its easier than most Linux installations, and when you're done, you have all the basic software you need, including chat software, office software (Open Office 3), Firefox 3, etc. all ready to go and a pretty decent and easy to use interface. The RAM in the RSX is actually automatically turned into a virtual drive greatly improving available memory. It takes about a minute and a half to completely boot and log in, and there's a menu option to boot back into the XMB.

If I were a student and I didn't have a PC yet, I'd have all I needed pretty much, and although not ideal, definitely good enough for most things. However ...

3. The real limitations when it comes to using Linux are on 64bit PowerPC. Something as simple and straightforward as running youtube videos isn't going to work from your browser. This sucks - you can still view youtube, but you have to do it from something like the Linux equivalent of Windows Media Player. This is all due to the status of Flash, which hasn't been supported by Adobe - the version there is basically still Flash 7.0! Efforts like Gnash and other Flash 'emulators' are nice, but they don't work very well.

4. It's pretty great that RSX memory is at least available, but the RSX itself still isn't supported. All graphics on PS3 Linux are still through a simple framebuffer driver. It's pretty fast for 2D stuff all things considering, but 3D stuff is basically out.

5. The entrance for developers isn't that bad actually - for devs installing Linux, especially the YDL release that has everything for the Cell SDK basically included by default - is pretty easy in the end; you can set up a working develop environment using your PC and PS3 linked up in two hours, although it took me much longer than that to figure that out (probably my own fault).

But for regular users it's just not great. It's not even that hard, but the pay-off may just be too small. It needs both RSX and up-to-date Flash support to really succeed. It will be interesting to see what the new owners of YDL, Fixstars, plan to do about that. From the looks of it though the RSX won't be enabled in Linux very soon, simply because it's probably very hard to make a hacker-safe driver in Linux. From everything we've seen it may be able to find a way to hack the PS3 through the RSX. Although we still think it shouldn't be too hard to make a safe virtual driver for the RSX, Sony probably isn't going to want to risk it nor invest the time needed.

All things considered, they should probably better invest into making PhyreEngine more widely available and make something like an AppStore where people can distribute their software, so you can buy games, video/audio/photo editing software and other tools from there. It seems an easier route (and commercially much more interesting) than solving the partitioning problem, making Adobe support PowerPC platforms, etc.

I'm currently reading a beautiful online book by IBM by the way on programming on the Cell (it has 666 pages, interestingly ). It's been kept up-to-date and it is very well written, extremely helpful, and contains a lot of very interesting stuff I can't wait to learn more about, like being able to set up simple proxy-dlls that replace functionality on the PC by rerouting the work to a Cell processor (including the PS3). It basically (and literally, it's one of the examples given!) means you can let your PS3 handle complex Excel calculations ... .

 

[Shifty Geezer]

All things considered, they should probably better invest into making PhyreEngine more widely available and make something like an AppStore where people can distribute their software...

That's a very good idea. Make available a closed development system securing against hackers but still allowing open development. The way Sony are heading, I don't quite see the objection to this, save the perpetual hacker fears. Open availability of PhyreEngine would attract development and interest and produce an indie culture the same as XNA. That has to be a Good Thing. Plus they can take a small slice off each sale a la Apple.

 

[patsu]

They seem to be heading that way for PSP: http://www.develop-online.net/news/32374/Exclusive-Sonys-new-development-strategy-for-PSP. Sony should generalize the concept for all PSN devices. Then again, they may need to wait until they don't lose $$$ for each PS3 sold first.

In fact, for 3D apps, Sony should consolidate the Home SDK (high level scripting) and PhyreEngine (low-level 3D API programming) too.

If BDA wants to, they could explore BD-Live Store for all Blu-ray players also -- although they may have to tier the player class here.

EDIT: For straight up Linux development, it also depends on how aggressive Sony and Toshiba push CE adoption of Cell. If there is a large variety of consumer devices based on Cell and SpursEngine, more companies would port their work to the SPUs. Too bad this is not happening.

 

[jonabbey]

I installed YDL on my PS3 when I first got it, but I never wound up using it for anything. If I wanted Firefox, etc., on my TV, it'd be easier (and better performing) just to set up a small ShuttlePC box and use Linux through that.

Having Linux on PS3 with less than 256megs of RAM available (due to the graphics bounce buffers) and no real applications that use the SPUs for anything, it just isn't worth much. Given that the PS3 has a (poor) browser and DLNA for streaming media from my Linux system's MediaTomb installation, there just is no point.

I had the idea that I might play with Cell development on it, but I never actually did anything with it in real life. So when I upgraded the internal hard drive on my PS3, I didn't bother allocating a Linux partition.

 

[Zassk]

Sadly, if YDL can't beat the YouTube capability of an Atom netbook, then there is no reason for average families to consider it. I think cheap netbooks (some of which have HDMI out) have mostly negated the argument for running Linux on a console box.

 

[Rolf N]

It's interesting as a first (cheap) contact with the Cell SDK but as a mass-market thing I don't see the draw.

 

[Danalys]

My understanding is that the slims introduction will be the turning point for selling at a loss selling at a profit.

As for linux while i haven't tried it in a while, my problems with it were, the lack of easy choice of resolution only 4 options would be nessersary really. I shouldn't need to edit configuration files it's not the days of DOS anymore and even in those days it shouldn't have been nessersary, especially on a fixed platform . No joypad surport, a virtual keyboard/mouse would be useful for casual use. Anything being cell optimized rather than just ppc would be intresting and make it actualy worthwhile.

 

[Arwin]

The resolution bit seemed pretty easy to me. There was a shortcut for an install in those four resolutions, I chose 720p which ran the complete install in that resolution straight away.

 

[Danalys]

Well that must have changed. I had to edit stuff so that it wasn't over or underscanning, I can't remember which.

 

[Arwin]

Yeah, it probably has changed. May also depend on the distribution of course ... this was YDL 6.2, which seems to be the package most explicitly optimised for the PS3.

 

[Danalys]

I also had a problem with wireless internet connection. It wasn't possible at one point without downloading something and editing config files. I'm not sure if that's changed. If you can't do stuff like that without a PC to find solutions then implement them then it's pretty much DOA.

 

[Arwin]

Yes, that was a general Linux problem a while ago. Now though that works straight out of the box, and although I haven't tried it on Linux yet, I recently found a really convenient way to get the full sixaxis working on Ubuntu on my PC as well, that really works including all the motion sensing stuff. I haven't tried this yet on YDL on my PS3.

 

[Blazkowicz]

try to get the LXDE environment running, it's the only reasonable looking linux desktop I know of that's both usable and lightweight (much more than xfce). I put that on 256MB or less computers. they can at least browse the web, play music, simple games etc. (on par with windows XP)

I don't have a PS3 (very, very few people must have a PS3 and no PC, since owning a PC is considerably cheaper and more versatile). But I can see a point to it : running emulators and the odd linux or open source game. And using whatever media playback and connectivity solution you like.
You could also use it as a dumb terminal for your main PC.. which is weird as it's a treatment for junk PC saved from the trash, but why not .

 

[idsn6]

Well, if it wasn't dead before, it certainly is now.

'Ø Removal of “Install Other OS” feature'