[PS3] Killzone 3

[Phil]

After Uncharted 2, I really didn't think there would be an other game that would impress me as much. To my surprise, KZ3 seems to raise the bar that little bit further (and KZ2 was already a mighty impressive achievement). Different game, different art-design, different technology - but damn, that's mighty impressive. Uncharted 2 might still be in its own league in many areas and a beautiful game on its own, but KZ3 just has a very appealing art-direction and uses its strengths to achive something that's just breathtaking. The feel and mood that's created in the demo just brings it that much closer to that bogus render of 2005. Simply wow.

Despite some of my differences with the MP part of the game, I'm really looking forward to the full game and especially the campaign.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Both of you are wrong, HDR is important. Read this before posting any more nonsense.
http://cmpmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o1/vault/gdc10/slides/Hable_John_Uncharted2_HDRLighting.pptx

If the math isn't there and you still push it too far, you'll get exactly the kind of ugly clamped look that KZ3 has.

 

[Trejser]

Are there many games with LDR lighting this gen? I still don't know if HDR is common this gen or not

 

[jlippo]

Both of you are wrong, HDR is important. Read this before posting any more nonsense.
http://cmpmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o1/vault/gdc10/slides/Hable_John_Uncharted2_HDRLighting.pptx

If the math isn't there and you still push it too far, you'll get exactly the kind of ugly clamped look that KZ3 has.

I was quite suprised that KZ3 didn't go for HDR, as you say the limitations of LDR are severe.

Most likely they wanted to keep light accumlation on RSX and keep the buffers the same as they were in KZ2. (outside the obvious lack of 2xAA.)
U2 had only depth and normals on G-buffer, so it was easier to use SPUs for lighting and RGBM buffer for storing light accumlation.

 

[Arwin]

I was quite suprised that KZ3 didn't go for HDR, as you say the limitations of LDR are severe.

The performance penalties are generally even more severe (not to mention that as far as I know one of them doesn't even support it fully), which is why the number of games with HDR implemented is very small especially on consoles.

 

[messyman]

Frame rate analysis of the SP demo done by PS360.

http://blog.livedoor.jp/ps360/archives/51688402.html?1297410752#comment-form

Frame rate drops during cutscenes, but other than that it's pretty solid.

 

[ct03]

the thing is HDR is very overrated cause our monitors can only display LDR, thus all this extra info for the most part is wasted

If you work in regular 8 bit, you have 256 brightness levels. The lowest "light level" is 1, the highest "light level" is 255.

This gives you a maximum of 9 exposure stops:
1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 255

Good 35mm film has a latitude of about 14 stops. CG with 8 bit lighting cannot live up to this kind of dynamic range.

What's more, the lighting in the scene cannot be accurately calculated without HDR. Let's say you pick RGB 1 as the brightness of a candle. RGB 255 would then be the brightness of the sun. In real life, the difference between a candle and the sun is WAY beyond 9 stops. Or in other words: Your virtual sun just isn't bright enough compared to other lights in the virtual environment.

 

[Neb]

Both of you are wrong, HDR is important. Read this before posting any more nonsense.
http://cmpmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o1/vault/gdc10/slides/Hable_John_Uncharted2_HDRLighting.pptx

If the math isn't there and you still push it too far, you'll get exactly the kind of ugly clamped look that KZ3 has.

Thanks for bringing some sense and facts to the HDR discussion.

 

[_phil_]

Your virtual sun just isn't bright enough compared to other lights in the virtual environment

It would be stupid to map real ranges into a game.
Artists would melt just trying to handle exposition. We're far from being able to mimic in realtime complex exposition mesures/calculations such as in modern cameras.

 

[Toaddio]

Both of you are wrong, HDR is important. Read this before posting any more nonsense.
http://cmpmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o1/vault/gdc10/slides/Hable_John_Uncharted2_HDRLighting.pptx

If the math isn't there and you still push it too far, you'll get exactly the kind of ugly clamped look that KZ3 has.

Who the hell are you even talking to? If someone isn't bothered by a scene that has a candle and the sun but they can still look at the screen without burning their eyes out...they're wrong?

You could try and talk about the breadth of technologies used in the game to try and help build an overall picture of what compromises had to be made. That would be an interesting discussion. Instead you nitpick one (valid?) point and repeat it endlessly to try and prove that the game overall is "ugly".

It's great and all that you try and knock down high profile PlayStation games to try and be the champion savior and sole individual that can see through all the "nonsense". But we're no longer in 2005 and no one is claiming that there's a secret GPU in the PS3.

At some point in time you should probably come to the same conclusions as everyone else and admit to yourself that it looks like the PS3 can produce the best looking games this generation, even if it's not by a significant margin. You don't have to like them of course, but nitpicking certain points detracts from the overall discussion. Everyone around here understands that compromises are made on all games, not just you.

 

[assurdum]

Who the hell are you even talking to? If someone isn't bothered by a scene that has a candle and the sun but they can still look at the screen without burning their eyes out...they're wrong?

You could try and talk about the breadth of technologies used in the game to try and help build an overall picture of what compromises had to be made. That would be an interesting discussion. Instead you nitpick one (valid?) point and repeat it endlessly to try and prove that the game overall is "ugly".

It's great and all that you try and knock down high profile PlayStation games to try and be the champion savior and sole individual that can see through all the "nonsense". But we're no longer in 2005 and no one is claiming that there's a secret GPU in the PS3.

At some point in time you should probably come to the same conclusions as everyone else and admit to yourself that it looks like the PS3 can produce the best looking games this generation, even if it's not by a significant margin. You don't have to like them of course, but nitpicking certain points detracts from the overall discussion. Everyone around here understands that compromises are made on all games, not just you.

Really me too, I don't understood this 'hate' to kz3 engine, I have the SP demo, & I found the light very impressive even 'clamped'. Several times I even thought it was HDR this 'fake' effects. The snow details too its incredible. I continue to miss the point to blame everyone who have different opinion fact & sense? What the hell we talking about here? The game not suffer of pop in, tearing, but it's more important to have HDR & maybe massive pop in & tearing then triple buffering, deferred rendering?

 

[Laa-Yosh]

I'm "nitpicking" the lack of proper HDR and linear lighting because it's ancient tech and should be forgotten by now; and because KZ3 not only keeps it, but abuses it beyond reason and this significantly weakens the graphics, keeping the game from reaching its visual potential. I've also pointed out how I preferred KZ2's looks instead of this overbright-but-clamped mess.

And in fact I'm not really nitpicking; I've merely pointed it out on a particularly ugly screenshot.
The resulting discussion from others was what I felt needed some input from the technical side, as a lot of people dismissed the importance of a proper dynamic range and linear lighting, because of ignorance and misconception about their actual nature, advantages, and importance.
Ct03 also contributed valuable information to the topic at hand.

Also notice how I repeatedly list Uncharted 2, a PS3 game, as the prime example of how it should be done.


All in all, I'd prefer to see some technical discussion about the issue, instead of some irrational rambling from people with hurt feelings.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

The game not suffer of pop in, tearing, but it's more important to have HDR & maybe massive pop in & tearing then triple buffering, deferred rendering?

Insisting that a proper HDR implementation would add pop in and tearing is beyond silly. Again, look at Uncharted 2.

 

[assurdum]

I'm "nitpicking" the lack of proper HDR and linear lighting because it's ancient tech and should be forgotten by now; and because KZ3 not only keeps it, but abuses it beyond reason and this significantly weakens the graphics, keeping the game from reaching its visual potential. I've also pointed out how I preferred KZ2's looks instead of this overbright-but-clamped mess.

And in fact I'm not really nitpicking; I've merely pointed it out on a particularly ugly screenshot.
The resulting discussion from others was what I felt needed some input from the technical side, as a lot of people dismissed the importance of a proper dynamic range and linear lighting, because of ignorance and misconception about their actual nature, advantages, and importance.
Ct03 also contributed valuable information to the topic at hand.

Also notice how I repeatedly list Uncharted 2, a PS3 game, as the prime example of how it should be done.


All in all, I'd prefer to see some technical discussion about the issue, instead of some irrational rambling from people with hurt feelings.

Me too, but the hurt feeling not depend of the criticism but try to pass the different opinion how incompetent, nosense & hysterical. I think every opinion is respectable how the others.

 

[assurdum]

Insisting that a proper HDR implementation would add pop in and tearing is beyond silly. Again, look at Uncharted 2.

Of course, I know. It was just an example to say every game have its lack & goodness. But I haven't seen any others game use properly the deferred rendering seen in kz engine. Even the same crysis 2 not 'catch' it.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

I'm "nitpicking" the lack of proper HDR and linear lighting because it's ancient tech and should be forgotten by now; and because KZ3 not only keeps it, but abuses it beyond reason and this significantly weakens the graphics, keeping the game from reaching its visual potential. I've also pointed out how I preferred KZ2's looks instead of this overbright-but-clamped mess.

And in fact I'm not really nitpicking; I've merely pointed it out on a particularly ugly screenshot.
The resulting discussion from others was what I felt needed some input from the technical side, as a lot of people dismissed the importance of a proper dynamic range and linear lighting, because of ignorance and misconception about their actual nature, advantages, and importance.
Ct03 also contributed valuable information to the topic at hand.

Also notice how I repeatedly list Uncharted 2, a PS3 game, as the prime example of how it should be done.


All in all, I'd prefer to see some technical discussion about the issue, instead of some irrational rambling from people with hurt feelings.

Okay, let me get this right. You are saying that because people don't agree with the level of importance you place on "proper dynamic range and linear lighting", in this game, they are suffering from ignorance and misconceptions? Wow!

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Me too, but the hurt feeling not depend of the criticism but try to pass the different opinion how incompetent, nosense & hysterical. I think every opinion is respectable how the others.

I'm sorry I didn't understand that...

 

[NotTarts]

Okay, let me get this right. You are saying that because people don't agree with the level of importance you place on "proper dynamic range and linear lighting", in this game, they are suffering from ignorance and misconceptions? Wow!

Er, no. He was referring to statements like this:

the thing is HDR is very overrated cause our monitors can only display LDR, thus all this extra info for the most part is wasted

Sounds like a pretty big misconception to me.

 

[BoardBonobo]

All in all, I'd prefer to see some technical discussion about the issue, instead of some irrational rambling from people with hurt feelings.

What issue? The game looks fantastic regardless of what trivial aspects may not be up to the bar for the OCD amongst us. As you said before HDR is ancient tech and should be forgotten. In which case why are you looking for it?

If it's just a matter of your personal sense of aesthetics being offended then you should just say so. But just jabbering on about a trivial ancient feature that most people wouldn't even notice is pointless. Besides if the tech is so old why have a technical discussion about it? That's re-inventing the wheel and then complaining it's not round enough.

Why not focus on the positives and discuss the tech that is there, the more modern tech instead of just focusing on the negatives?

 

[Laa-Yosh]

But I haven't seen any others game use properly the deferred rendering seen in kz engine.

Dead Space 2 is using deferred rendering, on both platforms, without these kinds of artifacts.
They don't have as much post processing going on as KZ3, but it's still a very good looking game, with some huge spaces at times (granted, the level designers prefer the claustrophobic corridors) and lots of dynamic lights.

It is possible but it also involves a few different compromises. But the importance of proper linear lighting and HDR rendering is higher, especially for a game with the visual style of KZ.
They're basically wasting all their efforts in every piece of artwork from textures to lighting because of this.

And please, please, pretty please, read that Naughty Dog presentation. It's not just math and code, it has a lot of pictures that illustrate everything I'm talking about here.