[PS3] Killzone 3

[AlNom]

The performance penalties are generally even more severe (not to mention that as far as I know one of them doesn't even support it fully), which is why the number of games with HDR implemented is very small especially on consoles.

Well it doesn't even appear they've gone with an encoded format either. The lack of range really hurts in one of the latest batches of SP shots. It's just excessive bloom and texture/sky washout.

Some of you folks are taking this way too personally... Ignoring the maths and even developer presentations isn't helping.

But the thing is it doesnt even have HDR! (shock horror fullstop)
it has some sort of MDR (M for medium)

And your point is? The precision and range are still much higher than your bog standard RGBA8. We've even got plenty of results from other titles making use of RGBM to extend the range some.

It seems a number of you aren't understanding that we're talking about how LDR is limiting what the image could potentially be. It's just a waste. Making this argument personal is silly. Sure it's nice that "the masses" can just accept that it looks fine, but we do have folks here on B3D that know a bit more. Are their opinions now just invalid even when presenting their reasons? Come on folks, this is childish.

Okay, let me get this right. You are saying that because people don't agree with the level of importance you place on "proper dynamic range and linear lighting", in this game, they are suffering from ignorance and misconceptions? Wow!

Way to miss the point... Maybe you should take some time to read the Naughty Dog presentation and try to understand instead of coming back with these pointless one-liners.

 

[ultragpu]

Sony 1st party devs seem to love the HDR RGBM method in their titles such as UC2 and GOW3 mainly due to the performance it saves while retain the bulk of high dynamic range. Would it be feasible to use it in killzone 3 engine without taking too much else away Laa Yosh?

 

[KKRT]

http://www.play-mag.co.uk/general/killzone-3-720p-screenshot-blow-out-2/

Some screens are mind blowing.

 

[assurdum]

Dead Space 2 is using deferred rendering, on both platforms, without these kinds of artifacts.
They don't have as much post processing going on as KZ3, but it's still a very good looking game, with some huge spaces at times (granted, the level designers prefer the claustrophobic corridors) and lots of dynamic lights.

It is possible but it also involves a few different compromises. But the importance of proper linear lighting and HDR rendering is higher, especially for a game with the visual style of KZ.
They're basically wasting all their efforts in every piece of artwork from textures to lighting because of this.

And please, please, pretty please, read that Naughty Dog presentation. It's not just math and code, it has a lot of pictures that illustrate everything I'm talking about here.

Dead Space 2 it's really 'flat' in texture or details & I'm not sure if use deferred light or rendering, because some effects seen in kz engine seem missed. I have understood your point of views, but really, the kz3 sp demo appear pretty phenomenal even in the light system to me. Probably I haven't a clinical eye, but the rough tech use 'to similute' the HDR, does its job.

 

[2real4tv]

Serious question:

Could someone post pics with illustrations of what they are talking about and then post another console FPS that doing it right to convey the point?

I don't think anyone here wouldn't appreciate HDR in KZ3 but people like me are already impressed with whats going on in KZ3 and are willing to deal with the precision compromise of the lighting. There is more going on in this game then lighting and its a beauty to see in action on a HDTV.

 

[AlNom]

http://www.play-mag.co.uk/general/killzone-3-720p-screenshot-blow-out-2/

Some screens are mind blowing.

Could someone post pics with illustrations of what they are talking about and then post another console FPS that doing it right to convey the point?

Alright... for example, almost every single screenshot here exhibits an overwhelming loss of texture detail, either from white wash or black crush. Artistically, you can see what they're going for, which is fine.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

Er, no. He was referring to statements like this:


Sounds like a pretty big misconception to me.

So you are saying his statement was to address this comment and others "like" it, huh? Where are the other statements "like" it? Are people suppose to unlike the visuals because of clamping they can hardly see? It doesn't add up.

 

[2real4tv]

Alright... for example, almost every single screenshot here exhibits an overwhelming loss of texture detail, either from washout or black crush.

Yeah I noticed that especially going indoors in the demo.

 

[ultragpu]

Well, the lighting and Bloom effect in kz3 certainly appear stunning to me regardless of HDR. I assume it would look better with HDR but god knows how much difference it would make. Just have to wait till killzone 4 folks.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

As you said before HDR is ancient tech and should be forgotten. In which case why are you looking for it?

No, lack of HDR and 8-bit light representation are ancient, as in anything from the first generation of 3D games. You're seriously misunderstanding something here.

If it's just a matter of your personal sense of aesthetics being offended then you should just say so.

Again, since every single pixel you see in the game is passing through the pipeline, every single pixel is suffering from the lack of a proper implementation of what I tend to simply refer to as High Dynamic Range. A gamma correct art pipeline, linear space lighting, tone mapping, and so on.
Also, for a deferred renderer it is especially important to use proper math because it's about accumulating a lot of lights on top of each other in the framebuffer. Calculation errors due to the improper math add up very quickly and result in a highly reduced image quality, as AIStrong has pointed out already.

Why not focus on the positives and discuss the tech that is there, the more modern tech instead of just focusing on the negatives?

Because all the modern tech is significantly constrained if the foundations of the engine are wrong.

 

[Arwin]

Well, the lighting and Bloom effect in kz3 certainly appear stunning to me regardless of HDR. I assume it would look better with HDR but god knows how much difference it would make. Just have to wait till killzone 4 folks.

If Killzone 4 comes to PS3, I'm willing to bet it won't have HDR either. Nothing short of a miracle can combine HDR with what Killzone is doing here. The amount of stuff going on on screen is completely uncomparable with its HDR using brethren like God of War 3 or Uncharted 2, and considering how difficult that is to do on the PS3, I'm pretty sure that Guerillia is more worried that LDR still contains too much data to handle, what with all the different forms of transparancies they have to perform on different levels and how far they need to lower the resolution of those effects to make them still work. Combining those with HDR would only make that stand out more, not unlike I imagine the problems we're seeing in Gran Turismo 5 with smoke and rain effects.

Sure you can see some of the limits in still-shots, and very clearly you'll never see as beautiful contrast/detail levels as you can see in Uncharted or God of War 3. Gold, sun and metal will never interplay as beautifully as it does in those games. However, when you are playing Killzone you're in a whirlwind of geometrical detail, particles, smoke, and other effects, and if you're finding all you're doing in this game is looking for (overwhelming??) missing texture detail because of LDR, this game probably isn't for you. There is just about nothing static in this game ever, and this is the same reason why a game with even (way) less detail such as Call of Duty can still work.

I could definitely be wrong as I don't work in the industry, and am definitely a 'sideline' expert, but my bet here is that combining with what I've seen in various games on my various gaming devices, and the wild idea that Guerillia aren't in fact a bunch of idiots who completely missed the obvious (even after having it pointed out to them by sideline experts).

So let's not confuse things: I don't have to be convinced about the value of HDR. I don't have to be convinced that Killzone 3 would look better in theory if they could employ HDR at no extra cost. I also see that there are plenty of people in this thread who aren't sure of what HDR really is, and confuse techniques that are often used to show off the dynamic range HDR allows, with HDR itself when they appear in a game that does not employ LDR. I know about nao32 and logluv, and the inherent inability for the RSX to combine default 16bit HDR modes with any regular form of AA.

And for the record, I even think that the crush inducing effects in Killzone 3 still make the game look better than Killzone 2 - I enjoy the wider range of lighting and dynamic effects they've employed. It's not a huge difference, and again, yes, it is limited by not using HDR, but console development is a world of compromise.

I don't intend to start a flamewar here at all, in case anyone misunderstands. Rather I'm hoping to bridge the gap between those who like what they're consuming, and those that dissect this stuff for their work and only taste the individual ingredients?

 

[_phil_]

A gamma correct art pipeline, linear space lighting, tone mapping, and so on

I'm pretty sure GG has a linear--->Gamma pipe.They just have a 0-->2 dynamic range 'cheap' trick.

 

[Phil]

It seems a number of you aren't understanding that we're talking about how LDR is limiting what the image could potentially be. It's just a waste. Making this argument personal is silly. Sure it's nice that "the masses" can just accept that it looks fine, but we do have folks here on B3D that know a bit more. Are their opinions now just invalid even when presenting their reasons? Come on folks, this is childish.

Of course, no one is disagreeing with that. I'm finding the HDR discussion most interesting and that real HDR would look better and without artefacts is beyond question, I think. I do think however that the discussion on why Guerrilla opted to go for LDR in their implementation to be a far more interesting one. Surely, there is some trade-off that was being made here that gave them the conclusion that their way is the way.

What works in Uncharted 2 might not work else where - they are after all two completely different games. Given how long KillZone 2/3 has been in development and that they are both Sony developers, I assume that there's a lot of code sharing between the two. So what possible technical reasons could there be for going LDR?

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Dead Space 2 it's really 'flat' in texture or details & I'm not sure if use deferred light or rendering, because some effects seen in kz engine seem missed.

KZ is using a LOT of post processing effects, including color correction and glow and such, making good use of the PS3's SPUs. If these were removed it'd look very similar to Dead Space 2.

Probably I haven't a clinical eye, but the rough tech use 'to similute' the HDR, does its job.

They don't simulate HDR, they pretend to adjust the camera aperture to change the exposure. Which only results in the scene getting lighter or darker. Please read the ND presentation to get a better idea of all the things this simple post processing trick fails to do.

 

[ct03]

It would be stupid to map real ranges into a game.
Artists would melt just trying to handle exposition.

If someone isn't bothered by a scene that has a candle and the sun but they can still look at the screen without burning their eyes out...they're wrong?

The overbright HDR scene lighting gets tonemapped, i.e. compressed into an 8-bit range.

And obviously light can't appear brighter on your display than the display allows, duh.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

At least in movie CG, artists usually have an easier time with realistic lighting, especially if they come from a background in film or photography. As soon as the gamma correct / linear workflow has been established, everyone adapted it as soon as they could because it makes everything better and easier.

Game artists may also need to go through the adjustment phase but once they're done everything will become a lot easier for them too.

 

[BoardBonobo]

No, lack of HDR and 8-bit light representation are ancient, as in anything from the first generation of 3D games. You're seriously misunderstanding something here.

I don't understand why you've made such an issue out of something that only you seem to have a problem with? The game looks amazing, it could have looked more amazing had they chosen to implement different features. But they didn't, it's no big deal.

Why don't we discuss what they have done?

Again, since every single pixel you see in the game is passing through the pipeline, every single pixel is suffering from the lack of a proper implementation of what I tend to simply refer to as High Dynamic Range. A gamma correct art pipeline, linear space lighting, tone mapping, and so on.
Also, for a deferred renderer it is especially important to use proper math because it's about accumulating a lot of lights on top of each other in the framebuffer. Calculation errors due to the improper math add up very quickly and result in a highly reduced image quality, as AIStrong has pointed out already.

This is what I mean by focusing on the negatives. It still looks really good considering the limitations of the hardware and especially when compared against some other games running on less constrained hardware. If all this is happening then why aren't the screens we're seeing, the videos we've watched, why aren't they looking like total garbage? They're not and the lack of HDR would appear to be at best just a missing tick box and not something that affects the game in any way.

Because all the modern tech is significantly constrained if the foundations of the engine are wrong.

So where is this constrained? What impact has it had on the game and how it plays? If it's had no impact whatsoever then it is an insignificant tick box for this particular game.

 

[Gitaroo]

I am just disappointed that they don't have SSAO in game, they have it in the pre recorded cut scenes so I think their engine does support it. Seem like they can't get the performance out or something. ND implementation was really cheap (1 ms on 6 spu), wonder if they really max out the spu usage with MLAA this time around.

 

[Turok]

This is what I mean by focusing on the negatives. It still looks really good considering the limitations of the hardware and especially when compared against some other games running on less constrained hardware. If all this is happening then why aren't the screens we're seeing, the videos we've watched, why aren't they looking like total garbage? They're not and the lack of HDR would appear to be at best just a missing tick box and not something that affects the game in any way.

This is a technical forum, where we're supposed to be able to discuss the strengths and shortcomings of a game's graphics. As far as I know, you don't have a personal stake in this, so for him to discuss how the lack of HDR hinders the image quality should be a non-issue. If you don't agree, offer a rebuttal, instead of saying that he shouldn't critique the game because it still looks great.

 

[assurdum]

This is a technical forum, where we're supposed to be able to discuss the strengths and shortcomings of a game's graphics. As far as I know, you don't have a personal stake in this, so for him to discuss how the lack of HDR hinders the image quality should be a non-issue. If you don't agree, offer a rebuttal, instead of saying that he shouldn't critique the game because it still looks great.

No one said that.