[PS3] Killzone 3 game discussion

[fearsomepirate]

KZ2 had much better maps, more options, and more classes. It also didn't make as many performance sacrifices for graphics (other than 30 fps), which is a no-no in multiplayer. I won't even play on Turbine Concourse, and Corinth Highway is pretty bad, too. MAWLR Graveyard and Frozen Dam are rather unbalanced, but playable. The only good maps are Bilgarsk and Pyrrhus. But none of them are close to the quality of Radec Academy, Salamun Market, Helghan Industries, Corinth Crossing or Tharsis Depot.

To me, the broader problem is objective-based games. On one hand, games that require teamwork are generally infuriating to me because random pubbies are generally so bad. No matter what you do, pubbies are always going to think it's more fun to get a kill than to take a flag or set a charge. Pubbies are going to go to places where they die the least and kill the most, which is generally not going to be near the objectives, what with their heavy crossfire and constant grenade-chucking.

So you can go two ways with the game design--either make it impossible to win without teamwork (like MAG) or make it possible for one or two good players to carry the team as long as both groups are randoms (Call of Duty, Killzone). The downside of the former way is that matches are generally completely lopsided. MAG eventually got boring to me, because either my clan and I were steamrolling pubbies in Sabotage, or we were brilliantly defending our side in Domination while losing anyway because we're only ~20% of the team.

But the second way is annoying to me, too. I don't want to be the guy who captures all the flipping flags himself. I played a Domination game in Black Ops last night where I basically was the team. I'd get to the enemy flag, clear out the defenders by myself, take it by myself, and then defend it by myself. That isn't fun. It's annoying. But 90% of the matches I win are won that way. I've had a few KZ3 matches that were exactly that, too. Too much fearsomepirate doing everything with little assistance while he can see half his team is camping in far corners of the map.

 

[patsu]

KZ2 had much better maps, more options, and more classes. It also didn't make as many performance sacrifices for graphics (other than 30 fps), which is a no-no in multiplayer. I won't even play on Turbine Concourse, and Corinth Highway is pretty bad, too. MAWLR Graveyard and Frozen Dam are rather unbalanced, but playable. The only good maps are Bilgarsk and Pyrrhus. But none of them are close to the quality of Radec Academy, Salamun Market, Helghan Industries, Corinth Crossing or Tharsis Depot.

Team balance usually determines the outcome. Both KZ2 and 3 are pretty bad at it. I have no idea why GG created all these impressive maps, and ignored this core gameplay element. When the teams are unbalanced, then some maps are (much) more vulnerable to spawn rape issues.

When the teams are roughly balanced, I like both KZ2 and 3. They are just very very different game.
I like most of the KZ2 and 3 maps except Turbine Concourse (because of the jetpacks). KZ3 added Radec Academy and Salamun Market later (plus other new maps). I also like KZ2 Southern Hills and Pyrrhus Rise in addition to some of those you listed.

To me, the broader problem is objective-based games. On one hand, games that require teamwork are generally infuriating to me because random pubbies are generally so bad. No matter what you do, pubbies are always going to think it's more fun to get a kill than to take a flag or set a charge. Pubbies are going to go to places where they die the least and kill the most, which is generally not going to be near the objectives, what with their heavy crossfire and constant grenade-chucking.

So you can go two ways with the game design--either make it impossible to win without teamwork (like MAG) or make it possible for one or two good players to carry the team as long as both groups are randoms (Call of Duty, Killzone). The downside of the former way is that matches are generally completely lopsided. MAG eventually got boring to me, because either my clan and I were steamrolling pubbies in Sabotage, or we were brilliantly defending our side in Domination while losing anyway because we're only ~20% of the team.

Yes, MAG can be brutally laborious and uneven. For better or worst, my most memorable FPS moment ever happened there. ^_^ It's exhilarating to fight along side your platoon when *both* the enemy platoon and your own know what they are doing, *plus* they happen to want the same objective *really* badly. We kept pushing each other back throughout the game, before one of the teams finally edged out (or lucked out) to claim a bunker. I am proud and glad to serve along side these fine gentlemen.

KZ3 is more a hero's game for me. You use the appropriate class and special ability at the right time to score one mission at a time. One player can make a real impact. When I play KZ3, my mind never stops thinking (It's like chess !). I'd keep putting pressure on the enemy until something breaks. It's harder to do that in MAG because the scale is grander, and I'm "just" a regular soldier, no different from the enemies inside the objective room.

KZ2 for me is a purer shooter. Before patch, it's slower paced but the atmosphere is incredible. Firing a gun feels so "real". I found myself staring at the screen all the time. After patch, and when people leveled up, it became more spammy. So GAF folks set up custom rooms to take rocket launchers, oversized teams, out of the equation.

 

[patsu]

I fired up KZ3 these 2 nights to see what I missed.

Holy crap, I'm rusty. Forgot the button layout completely. Game is indeed harsh when teams are unbalanced.

Ran into cbarcus' games. We lost big time both rounds (0-7, 1-6). 8^(

 

[patsu]

Three Projects from Killzone Devs in the Works
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/122/1220264p1.html

During an art process panel at GDC 2012, Guerrilla's Studio Art Director Jan-Bart van Beek said that the team -- which now includes the Sony Cambridge Studios working on Killzone Vita -- is simultaneously working on three different projects. There's the aforementioned Vita game, a new non-Killzone title, and continuing the franchise on the PlayStation 3.

Jan-Bart van Beek didn't say if the PS3 stuff was supporting Killzone 3 with downloadable content or a new entry in the franchise, but he did talk about how the team decided on its new IP. Basically, interested team members pitched the next game they'd want to make -- 32 entries to start with -- and the group narrowed it down to four.

...

 

[Prophecy2k]

Three Projects from Killzone Devs in the Works
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/122/1220264p1.html

I def want a new KZ on PS3. Will buy day 1. Love KZ, even though all four games (incl. liberation) have been very different.

For their new IP i'd like a Sci-Fi wRPG along the lines of mass effect. Perhaps one set in the KZ universe. I love the art in KZ games, they just have this super distinctive and super cohesive look that alot of games aspire to but very few actually achieve.

Anything that Guerilla produce next i'll buy. I just hope that Sony gives them enough freedom to explore their own ideas and doesn't force them to waste their dev time (and polishing time) on useless things like 3D that only a fraction of the userbase can enjoy.

 

[patsu]

Me too. Although part of me thinks that they may want to experiment with new format. Instead of full 8-10 hours experiences, try 2-3 hours SP (like a Hollywood movie) with great MP. Then price it cheaper. I'm kinda curious how it would work in today's busy schedule and cheap game mentality.

Would love it if KZ2's art direction makes a come back, with stereoscopic 3D too.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I had some insane times in KZ2, like countersniping as a medic on Pyrrhus Rise, when all I could see were blue dots. There were more than a few matches in Tharsis Depot I was instrumental in winning as an engineer, because I dedicated myself to absolutely controlling the upper walkway area. I got the Top 10% medal one week, and that's when I decided I proved I was good at it and moved on to other games.

I just can't get into KZ3. The maps are just so bad. The proxy mines everywhere are just tiresome. And the performance issues are just annoying. Sacrificing frame rate for graphical effects is stupid. Frozen Dam is the worst about this.

Ugh!

That said, I so love the themes and art of the series that I really want another game. Killzone probably has the deepest, most interesting back story of any shooter out there. COD is too silly. Halo is too campy. This is perfect. I just want it to be as good as KZ2. I want my server browser and public custom games back. Bring back Soldier and Assault. Bring back squads. And give me a single player campaign comparable to the original game's in sheer scope. The original game has probably the most ambitious campaign in the series.

 

[RenegadeRocks]

I had some insane times in KZ2, like countersniping as a medic on Pyrrhus Rise, when all I could see were blue dots. There were more than a few matches in Tharsis Depot I was instrumental in winning as an engineer, because I dedicated myself to absolutely controlling the upper walkway area. I got the Top 10% medal one week, and that's when I decided I proved I was good at it and moved on to other games.

I just can't get into KZ3. The maps are just so bad. The proxy mines everywhere are just tiresome. And the performance issues are just annoying. Sacrificing frame rate for graphical effects is stupid. Frozen Dam is the worst about this.

Ugh!

That said, I so love the themes and art of the series that I really want another game. Killzone probably has the deepest, most interesting back story of any shooter out there. COD is too silly. Halo is too campy. This is perfect. I just want it to be as good as KZ2. I want my server browser and public custom games back. Bring back Soldier and Assault. Bring back squads. And give me a single player campaign comparable to the original game's in sheer scope. The original game has probably the most ambitious campaign in the series.

KZ2 campaign was one of the best shooter campaigns. Loved it absolutely !

 

[Arwin]

I loved both. What tips KZ3 over KZ2 for me is that I hated the ending of KZ2, and I actually didn't finish it because I just didn't enjoy the final fight(s). Just too annoying. KZ3 was a smooth experience from start to finish, and the Move controller made it a standout, near revelatory FPS experience for me. It also made the on-rails sections a tonne more fun than I imagine they would have been with the DS3, and the jetpacks were almost as much fun to fight with as against, thanks to move making it much easier to track and shoot them.

I have less and less tolerance of FPS games, but I'd buy KZ4 on PS3 in a heartbeat if Move support stays in, which I imagine it will.

I only played multiplayer in the beta, which I enjoyed, but I don't know if I like it more or less than KZ2, as I just didn't play it enough for that. I remember that the KZ2 mp had some great levels with the really far of distances and fog making the Helghast red lights stand out and giving them a disadvantage. But I had the impression KZ3 had better balance in terms of spawn-point oppression, but that can be because I only played the beta. I may try online again now that there are likely more players out there, but then again playing online is just too hard - I can't get much uninterrupted play-time with wife and kid, and it would end up being frustrating no doubt.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Completely disagree. KZ3's rail shooter ending is IMO the worst FPS ending I've ever played. KZ2's balls-to-the-wall, pull-all-the-stops-out final push into the place, capped with a frenetic boss fight, is probably one of my favorite FPS endings of all time. One of my favorite things about the KZ2 boss fight is there's really no one right way to play it. You can focus on the enemies and wait to kill Radec 1-on-1, or you can try to snipe Radec throughout the fight, which makes it harder to kill the bad guys, but you can actually kill him before you're done killing the basic baddies. Love it. Played it a million times.

 

[Arwin]

Completely disagree. KZ3's rail shooter ending is IMO the worst FPS ending I've ever played. KZ2's balls-to-the-wall, pull-all-the-stops-out final push into the place, capped with a frenetic boss fight, is probably one of my favorite FPS endings of all time. One of my favorite things about the KZ2 boss fight is there's really no one right way to play it. You can focus on the enemies and wait to kill Radec 1-on-1, or you can try to snipe Radec throughout the fight, which makes it harder to kill the bad guys, but you can actually kill him before you're done killing the basic baddies. Love it. Played it a million times.

And I can appreciate that from a hardcore point of view, just as many appreciated Resistance 3 relative freedom to take various different routes using various different weapons and strategies to each 'problem' in the game.

But whereas I found most of the game very doable with only a few rough points that I had to work at and do frequent restarts, I couldn't do the final battle and hated the experience too much to keep wanting to try. So I couldn't finish the game, and whenever a game does that to me, I am not happy. My brain is wired for closure.

 

[patsu]

Completely disagree. KZ3's rail shooter ending is IMO the worst FPS ending I've ever played. KZ2's balls-to-the-wall, pull-all-the-stops-out final push into the place, capped with a frenetic boss fight, is probably one of my favorite FPS endings of all time. One of my favorite things about the KZ2 boss fight is there's really no one right way to play it. You can focus on the enemies and wait to kill Radec 1-on-1, or you can try to snipe Radec throughout the fight, which makes it harder to kill the bad guys, but you can actually kill him before you're done killing the basic baddies. Love it. Played it a million times.

I can't remember how KZ3 ends anymore. Seriously, it's like someone stole my memory. There is a rather large void in its place (Probably garbage collected).

In my ideal world, for their next short game, they should remove rocket launcher completely. ;-)

 

[Nesh]

I dont want any on rails section on the next Killzone either. They shoved these sections in to give better use for the Move but it was completely unnecessary as the game already played great with Move anyways.
The last level needed something that would keep us on the edge of our seat. And it would have been awesome if WE could control the ships. But nooooooo... they had to put some on rails shooting, Its like being close to orgasm and your partner suddenly stops and starts knitting .

 

[Arwin]

I dont want any on rails section on the next Killzone either. They shoved these sections in to give better use for the Move but it was completely unnecessary as the game already played great with Move anyways.
The last level needed something that would keep us on the edge of our seat. And it would have been awesome if WE could control the ships. But nooooooo... they had to put some on rails shooting, Its like being close to orgasm and your partner suddenly stops and starts knitting .

Ok, but now explain why all those other, multiplatform, non-Move supporting first person shooters have on-rails sections.

A good solution though would be co-op in the next one, where your partner flies and you shoot. That kind of game could be awesome ... doesn't Battlefield 3 have a multiplayer section like that with a chopper? That would be great with Move support (for the flying too actually)

 

[Prophecy2k]

Hahahaahaha @ Nesh's orgasm analogy... that's gonna be a classic ;-)

I had no problem with on-rails sections. And perhaps that's just because i personally LOVE on-rails shooters. Even KZ2 had that section where you shoot at enemy fighter crafts from the turret on the starship.

I actually LOVED both KZ2 and 3, probably as much as each other. KZ3 game me Move support, the stealth missions and more time in the mechs (as it's established fact that mechs in any game = WIN).

The end of KZ2 though was probably my most favourite ending in any game ever. ESPECIALY the lead up to radec where you storm the palace in a full frontal assault. Even WWII games haven't made me feel like i was playing a WWII beachhead landing like KZ2 did Super exciting and exhilerating stuff.

KZ3 sadly didn't have any of those moments, but it did have some really memorable ones still, that were made even more awesome with the pin-point accuracy that Move support allowed. I really need Move in more FPS games, but the sad ideology that Move or motion controls is for "teh casuals" is stiffling that fact. Hopefully Bioshock Infinite will rectify that fact and prove that Move is more than just a kiddy's glowing dildo

I agree with the poster though that said he wants the next KZ game to have a SP campaign similar to KZ1. KZ1's campaign was in-friggin-credible! I know that the game got stigma from the press (and fanboys) for its performance issues and the fact that it never lived up to the "halo-killer" hype that surrounded it before release (as if anything ever could have), but KZ1 SP was simply a triumph for me in cinematic SP FPS gameplay. I played that game and loved every stinking damned minute of it. Then i finished it and played it again, and again and again until my PS2 died with the game in it's mouth (poor bastard).

If Guerrilla can get back to what made KZ1 so special, and then update both the SP and MP with all that people enjoyed of KZ2 & 3, then KZ4 could end up being the greatest FPS of all time in my mind. It already has the art-style and backstory to get it there

 

[Arwin]

ESPECIALY the lead up to radec where you storm the palace in a full frontal assault. Even WWII games haven't made me feel like i was playing a WWII beachhead landing like KZ2 did Super exciting and exhilerating stuff.

Mind you I did really enjoy this!

 

[fearsomepirate]

It's not that I'm against on-rails sections. They can be fun. It's that (a) they make terrible finales, and (b) the worst kind of rail shooter is where you're constantly shooting down incoming missiles instead of bad guy space ships, hence why KZ3's finale was so disappointing.

Overall, KZ3's vehicle sections were much better than KZ2's. The tank section was just lame (with 512 MB, you can either have high-res graphical assets or enough space to maneuver), and the turret section was kind of boring, too. But I think KZ2's on-foot sequences were generally more engaging. I didn't particularly like KZ3's jetpack sequences. They were okay, but they were too constrained by invisible walls. Crysis 2 did this sort of thing much better (power jump isn't quite a jetpack, but same idea). I didn't really like the space station battle, either. It was just way too rails-y, and the physics didn't make any sense (why does gravity stop working when someone dies?)

The opening sequence where you escort the convoy was pretty intense. I enjoyed fighting my way through the jungle. The junkyard mission was okay. And the mechs were fun. But most of the infantry combat was either unmemorable, gimmicky, or so linear that it made Call of Duty look like a sandbox game.

 

[patsu]

It's all a blur now.

I can vaguely remember the MAWLR level, the mecha and vehicle chase scenes, the junkyard and the other sniping level. The game actually plays better with a Move controller. The jungle level was somewhat interesting too.

I didn't pay much attention to the space levels. I remember the weapons would drift towards the ceiling if I didn't grab them fast enough. Didn't notice whether the corpse would float too. I suppose from your comments, enemy corpses stay on the ground ?

 

[fearsomepirate]

No, the opposite...the bad guys are able to walk around until they die, then they float away.

 

[2real4tv]

Just purchased a 3d tv and the 3d effects are very impressive in this game. Really enjoying it even though its in a lower native res the image still looks sharp and colorful to me.