[PS3] Killzone 2

[tha_con]

Probably because Gaf is down

That actually explains a lot, lol.

That said, I'm not upset or confused people are defending KZ2. I do the same with Resistance 2. One game just happens to be far prettier than the other, so of course it's going to gain more fans.

Though, I also expressed my gripes with Resistance 2, and I think it's important that some indivudals take a moment to really think about what they do and don't say about a game, instead of jumping on the hype wagon and excusing every fault a game may have.

I don't have a particular problem with KZ2 or it's controls, but to simply write off someone elses opinion regarding them is a bit OTT. There certainly is valid reason to complain with regard to the control system, as it does add an additional layer of meat to the learning curve, and it may be unnecessary, in my opinion.

Though, I am also of the opinion that this is not a design choice, because it also translates to the time it takes to fire a weapon and the menus, not just aiming. I think it's a technical issue, and it's possibly related to the engine itself.

 

[patsu]

Their official work-in-progress update suggested that they are still experimenting with the controls. It's really not a 1 or 0 thing. They may (or may not ?) be able to find a sweetspot with more people while not losing the feel of the game entirely. Let's see.

As someone who has plunged in, I certainly don't mind the controls one bit. Would be a real shame if the game plays too much like a UT3 user mod (Remember we only get one main weapon and one pistol, so the weapon feel is rather important in KZ2).

 

[BoardBonobo]

Had a fantastic crash last night.

Spoiler

On the level where you have to destroy the generators to stop the arc cannon.

I started the level and there was one helgast that just kept re-spawning over and over again in the same spot and all the weapons were floating in mid air. I had to restart the whole section to get it to work properly. That's the first crash I've had with KZ2.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Every time Call of Duty gets mentioned people mention the aim assist. No one is saying they want aim assist in killzone2. All they want is predictable, reliable and accurate controls. I can deal with inaccurate weapons and relatively low sensitivity as long as I can reliably put the aimer where I want it to be. I'm sure I could get used to the aiming in Killzone2, but I don't really know why I'd want to. It would have just made sense to not break what wasn't broken. Having a weird aiming scheme doesn't do anything to improve the game or make it more unique. I could eat dog shit every day and I might get over my gag reflex, but I have no intention of doing so.

To be honest, I'm probably going to buy the game to play with my brother over the next week or so, and I'll probably get by, but I'll always be thinking that it could have been better. Now, if they add party mode (outside of Home) I'll be really happy.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

And how many people actually turn this off when you can snap your sights on someone quickly and down him by pulling the trigger?

I have auto aim turned off, and i win 80+% of all FFA matches i join, finish top 3 about 95% of the time if i joined when the match began.

Then again i only use ironsights at long ranges, otherwise i just fire from the hip and strafe like hell.

I dont know why you keep mentioning this Autoaim feature. We are not saying we want autoaim, WE WANT PREDICTABLE CONTROLS!!!

Sure, KZ2 controls will also be predictable, if we play for god knows how many hours in order to learn the exact features of the acceleration. Why should we have to? This will also "destroy" our aiming capabilities in other games.

There is absolutely no benefit from using KZ2 controls over the "normal" scheme that most mainstream fps games have.

If mercedes created a new car, and instead of a steering wheel we used a joystick. If this joystick setup did not offer any better control than we allready have with a steering wheel, what would be the point of having to relearn this control setup? Why couldn't they just hae put in a steering wheel, so that everybody who wants to drive the car could drive it straight away without having to re-learn anything?

Side note: Got a wierd sound bug when playing MP, i think it was because the sound got really hectic (lots and lots of action) and suddenly it was gone! Came back after a minute or two thought.

 

[Kittonwy]

Every time Call of Duty gets mentioned people mention the aim assist. No one is saying they want aim assist in killzone2. All they want is predictable, reliable and accurate controls. I can deal with inaccurate weapons and relatively low sensitivity as long as I can reliably put the aimer where I want it to be. I'm sure I could get used to the aiming in Killzone2, but I don't really know why I'd want to. It would have just made sense to not break what wasn't broken. Having a weird aiming scheme doesn't do anything to improve the game or make it more unique. I could eat dog shit every day and I might get over my gag reflex, but I have no intention of doing so.

To be honest, I'm probably going to buy the game to play with my brother over the next week or so, and I'll probably get by, but I'll always be thinking that it could have been better. Now, if they add party mode (outside of Home) I'll be really happy.

So you haven't played MP at all? And yes, you CAN reliably put the reticle on where you want it to be, the weapons are very accurate. With the standard rifle if you're skilled enough you can take out a sniper from afar. The difference is that turning isn't as fast as in other games so if someone sneaks up behind you, you're likely going to be dead instead of being able to do a 180 and kill him even though he's got you dead in his sights.

 

[patsu]

I can deal with inaccurate weapons and relatively low sensitivity as long as I can reliably put the aimer where I want it to be. I'm sure I could get used to the aiming in Killzone2, but I don't really know why I'd want to.

Actually getting used to the controls, including aiming is not unique to KZ2. I had to do that for Bioshock, Metal Gears, Resistance 2 for instance. You'll have to ask yourself if you like the game as a whole.

When I played the game, I didn't fight the aiming at all. Just work the sticks differently to get what you want. Sometimes, I'd be off because of the acceleration and the dodging target. When that happens, I just adjust my aiming or even position altogether.

The MP game has slightly different aiming dynamics because the enemies are different. Haven't tried it yet myself.

It would have just made sense to not break what wasn't broken. Having a weird aiming scheme doesn't do anything to improve the game or make it more unique. I could eat dog shit every day and I might get over my gag reflex, but I have no intention of doing so.

I don't think the intention is to fix a broken control scheme. It's to experiment and create their own FPS experience. Using the dog shit example, I reckon it's more like you have been eating cat shit, so switching to dog shit is just another ordeal.

 

[Kittonwy]

I have auto aim turned off, and i win 80+% of all FFA matches i join, finish top 3 about 95% of the time if i joined when the match began.

Then again i only use ironsights at long ranges, otherwise i just fire from the hip and strafe like hell.

I dont know why you keep mentioning this Autoaim feature. We are not saying we want autoaim, WE WANT PREDICTABLE CONTROLS!!!

Sure, KZ2 controls will also be predictable, if we play for god knows how many hours in order to learn the exact features of the acceleration. Why should we have to? This will also "destroy" our aiming capabilities in other games.

There is absolutely no benefit from using KZ2 controls over the "normal" scheme that most mainstream fps games have.

If mercedes created a new car, and instead of a steering wheel we used a joystick. If this joystick setup did not offer any better control than we allready have with a steering wheel, what would be the point?

You're arguing how you can play with lock-on off when my point is that the lock-on helps and not many people would simply take it off.

The controls IS predictable, it's just that you can't turn as fast while firing. I'm not sure whom you meant by "we", because the majority of the people who tested the game at the various stages liked how it controls and the majority of the people who are playing the game aren't constantly bitching about the controls. Not sure why you keep arguing for a patch because it's not happening since they would have to rebalance the game completely. Just go play something else like COD4 since it's obviously going to be more fun for you.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I find the controls more difficult in KZ2 than other shooters for sure. I'm not going to say they're more realistic since I've only fired various guns at ranges, but I will say it does take a much more concentrated and controlled effort not to over aim (swing past a target) than most FPSs. That said, I kind of like this aspect. The hair-trigger speed of most FPS games is absurd. How many people can really run full speed and draw a perfect bead aim on a guy 50 yards away?

None.

Yet I can do this is virtually every FPS except KZ2 (especially kb/mouse games on the PC).

So I'm through the clear the square mission and getting better at the controls. As I rush the enemy my aiming is very slow and deliberate (as someone else mentioned) because I know I will overaim if I play it too fast.

Good or bad for you, it's just a big change from twitch shooters.

But the firing accuracy of the weapon is completely separate from the input. You can change weapon accuracy depending on how a player is moving, if they're kneeling, prone, jumping or sprinting. You can put recoil on weapons, spread, sway etc.

What I want is to be able to put my aimer on an enemy comfortably, and in that regard Killzone2 feels a lot crappier than most other fps games on the market. Call of Duty is very very smooth and I consider it the best, but other games like Left 4 Dead are also very good.

Killzone2 seems to have fairly accurate weapons and less responsive controls.

 

[obonicus]

Every time Call of Duty gets mentioned people mention the aim assist. No one is saying they want aim assist in killzone2. All they want is predictable, reliable and accurate controls. I can deal with inaccurate weapons and relatively low sensitivity as long as I can reliably put the aimer where I want it to be. I'm sure I could get used to the aiming in Killzone2, but I don't really know why I'd want to. It would have just made sense to not break what wasn't broken. Having a weird aiming scheme doesn't do anything to improve the game or make it more unique. I could eat dog shit every day and I might get over my gag reflex, but I have no intention of doing so.

But is it broken? That's also part of the debate. What the CoD defenders are saying is: 'not like CoD=broken', even if they're not aware of that. It's a ridiculous stance to take, because not every game plays like CoD. In fact, most don't -- CoD plays like CoD. The defense is that KZ2 plays differently from CoD -- why should it control identically?

 

[Cheezdoodles]

The difference is that turning isn't as fast as in other games so if someone sneaks up behind you, you're likely going to be dead instead of being able to do a 180 and kill him even though he's got you dead in his sights.

You dont get it at all do you? This has NOTHING to do with turning speed. Slow sensitivity is fine for games that are slow paced. Lots of games have slow sensitivity.

The point is that the accelerated turning makes it HARDER to predict where your aim is going to be, because the setup is unique to KZ2 and thus you have to relearn the aim vs other shooters which all tend to have very very similiar setups (at varying sensitivity\turning speeds)

 

[Kittonwy]

But the firing accuracy of the weapon is completely separate from the input. You can change weapon accuracy depending on how a player is moving, if they're kneeling, prone, jumping or sprinting. You can put recoil on weapons, spread, sway etc.

What I want is to be able to put my aimer on an enemy comfortably, and in that regard Killzone2 feels a lot crappier than most other fps games on the market. Call of Duty is very very smooth and I consider it the best, but other games like Left 4 Dead are also very good.

Killzone2 seems to have fairly accurate weapons and less responsive controls.

Not sure why you feel that way because unlike a lot of other games you can actually pick an enemy off with a headshot with a standard rifle easily, putting the reticle on an enemy shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Mize]

But the firing accuracy of the weapon is completely separate from the input. You can change weapon accuracy depending on how a player is moving, if they're kneeling, prone, jumping or sprinting. You can put recoil on weapons, spread, sway etc.

What I want is to be able to put my aimer on an enemy comfortably, and in that regard Killzone2 feels a lot crappier than most other fps games on the market. Call of Duty is very very smooth and I consider it the best, but other games like Left 4 Dead are also very good.

Killzone2 seems to have fairly accurate weapons and less responsive controls.

I know what you're saying, but if we're after some amount of realism, an awkward weapon is more realistic than drawing a bead and missing because of unseen physics handled by some formula of your running speed, etc.

IMHO a good compromise would be snappier controls when prone (kneeling) and lighter weapons with controls getting slower (sloppier) with speed and weapon weight. So if I'm looking down the site from a prone position I should have quicker response than if I'm running and shooting - and this for the "putting my crosshairs" on the enemy.

 

[obonicus]

I find the controls more difficult in KZ2 than other shooters for sure. I'm not going to say they're more realistic since I've only fired various guns at ranges, but I will say it does take a much more concentrated and controlled effort not to over aim (swing past a target) than most FPSs. That said, I kind of like this aspect. The hair-trigger speed of most FPS games is absurd. How many people can really run full speed and draw a perfect bead aim on a guy 50 yards away?

None.

Yet I can do this is virtually every FPS except KZ2 (especially kb/mouse games on the PC).

So I'm through the clear the square mission and getting better at the controls. As I rush the enemy my aiming is very slow and deliberate (as someone else mentioned) because I know I will overaim if I play it too fast.

Good or bad for you, it's just a big change from twitch shooters.

Just a note, you don't need to aim unless enemies are quite far away. I think the idea (and associated with Sev's midgetness) is that he's always stooped, gun to his shoulder. There's recoil-spread, but it peaks pretty early. And unlike most other games, Sev isn't entirely useless with a sniper rifle when not looking down the sights. You can hit enemies from 5-10m with the AR consistently.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

The controls IS predictable, it's just that you can't turn as fast while firing.

No turning speed has nothing to do with this. Nobody here is arguing about the turning speed. REREAD.

We find the controls UNPREDICTABLE, because the acceleration on the right stick is unique to KZ2. In order to get good aim, we need learn the exact formula for the acceleration, otherwise we will be over\under compensating.

I'm not sure whom you meant by "we",

I mean f. example all the other peoples who complain about the controls in this forum?

Not sure why you keep arguing for a patch because it's not happening since they would have to rebalance the game completely. .

Im not arguing for a patch. And no they would not have to rebalance anything, having the option to turn acceleration off, would simply make it easier for a lot of people to aim, while giving no benefits because sensitivity settings will still be capped at the same rate (so turning speed is the same).

 

[Delta9]

I think the controls are simple. But am glad people seem to can't figure it out just more kills for me

IMO, people saying the controls are hard are just being schooled by higher class people and get mad.

 

[Kittonwy]

You dont get it at all do you? This has NOTHING to do with turning speed. Slow sensitivity is fine for games that are slow paced. Lots of games have slow sensitivity.

The point is that the accelerated turning makes it HARDER to predict where your aim is going to be, because the setup is unique to KZ2 and thus you have to relearn the aim vs other shooters which all tend to have very very similiar setups (at varying sensitivity\turning speeds)

Well I'm not sure why you're having such a problem but I like it fine. Seriously if you don't like accelerated turning then don't play the game. Not sure which part of "they're not going to change the controls" you don't get. Yes you do have to relearn the controls a bit, if you're not happy with that, go play something else that makes you happy.

 

[Kittonwy]

No turning speed has nothing to do with this. Nobody here is arguing about the turning speed. REREAD.



I mean f. example all the other peoples who complain about the controls in this forum?




Im not arguing for a patch. And no they would not have to rebalance anything, having the option to turn acceleration off, would simply make it easier for a lot of people to aim, while giving no benefits because sensitivity settings will still be capped at the same rate (so turning speed is the same).

You're complaining about the accelerated turning, read your last post.

If you're not arguing for a patch then what the hell is the point of your whole argument? Just complaining for the sake of complaining then? If you're not enjoying the game, DON'T PLAY IT, nobody will fault you for not liking the game, just let others discuss what they DO like because lots of people like the way it plays.

 

[patsu]

But the firing accuracy of the weapon is completely separate from the input. You can change weapon accuracy depending on how a player is moving, if they're kneeling, prone, jumping or sprinting. You can put recoil on weapons, spread, sway etc.

What I want is to be able to put my aimer on an enemy comfortably, and in that regard Killzone2 feels a lot crappier than most other fps games on the market. Call of Duty is very very smooth and I consider it the best, but other games like Left 4 Dead are also very good.

The question is will an average gamer be able to improve his/her aiming after playing the game for a few hours. If they can, I don't think it's a problem. It's different.

The other question is whether the difference will alienate many gamers. If so, they should provide an option for them for business reasons. This may not have to do with the feel/quality/right/wrong of the game though. It's a perception issue.

Killzone2 seems to have fairly accurate weapons and less responsive controls.

KZ2 movement is slower but enemies also move slower (or more realistically). As long as it's balanced, it should feel natural. As for lag/responsiveness, I hardly feel the lag (The "sudden/accelerated" movement in aiming should be more problematic). It's not detrimental to my tactics. But if you have a laggy network and TV, then all is lost.

Naturally, the accuracy of the weapons depend on the weapon characteristics and ... wind condition.

 

[Kittonwy]

That actually explains a lot, lol.

Well as soon as gaf goes back up I'm out of here, not sure why you keep acting like this place is so much better than gaf when so much of the gaming news actually comes from gaf, it's still THE place to talk about games and not shaders or cascade shadowing.

That said, I'm not upset or confused people are defending KZ2. I do the same with Resistance 2. One game just happens to be far prettier than the other, so of course it's going to gain more fans.

Don't forget far better maps in Killzone 2 and a better soundtrack, and better gameplay.

Though, I also expressed my gripes with Resistance 2, and I think it's important that some indivudals take a moment to really think about what they do and don't say about a game, instead of jumping on the hype wagon and excusing every fault a game may have.

I don't have a particular problem with KZ2 or it's controls, but to simply write off someone elses opinion regarding them is a bit OTT. There certainly is valid reason to complain with regard to the control system, as it does add an additional layer of meat to the learning curve, and it may be unnecessary, in my opinion.

Though, I am also of the opinion that this is not a design choice, because it also translates to the time it takes to fire a weapon and the menus, not just aiming. I think it's a technical issue, and it's possibly related to the engine itself.

I think unlike R2, the testers really like how it plays, and basically Guerilla Games went with that, and it has worked well for most. I think just like R2, if you don't like the way the game plays, just don't play it, I've basically stopped playing R2 and likely won't go back to it or post much in R2 threads. Not every game is everybody's cup of tea.