[PS3] Demon Souls

[patsu]

Auto-lockon would spoil the element of surprise

Which level are you in now ?

There are cases where enemies disguise themselves as part of the landscape. You will need to scan the environment intently like in a horror movie, or use lock-on to identify hidden enemies when you suspect foul play. Occasionally I would use my bow's FPS view and zoom into the distance to scout my route. The level is full of danger in some places, the game forces you to take care of yourself with simple but adequate tools. Auto lock-on would have dumbed down your senses. It won't be as engrossing. Might get yourself killed by cheap traps too. If you play the game as intended, you will see the lurking dangers (Again: blood stains, player messages, hole in the ground, or partially hidden monsters).


Secondly, when lock-on is enabled, the game centers the screen based on the reticule. This will help you tremendously when fighting fast enemies (e.g., fighting Black Phantoms). Auto-lockon would mean you lose control when you approach every enemy.


With the current setup, the game gives the player full control of the camera, and also control over whether you want tracking lock-on or not. It is more versatile than "auto-cruise" like feature. Note that you don't need lock-on to kill an enemy.

At the beginning you will roll more with lock-on enabled, because it helps you to circle strafe weak/regular enemies. Sometimes when fighting strong enemies, you want to roll without lock-on (RUN !!!). If you think toggling lock-on is too hard, then the better technique is to lure enemies out of their hiding places and take them one by one on safe ground.

My advice is to get a bow asap. It will simplify the game greatly because you can lure and hurt monsters at the same time at a safe distance. Or use the soul fragments to attract enemies. You have all the tools you need, and they all work adequately. Just not powerful enough to dumb down your senses. Yes, it requires you to handle all the details but at the same time, your will pay attention to your every move (or risk dying more).

Once you have died in a level, the game becomes noticeably easier because you know where the danger are. Even with a half-health soul form, the player should be able to clear old enemies relatively quickly and grab their loot.

I cleared the pretty difficult 5-2 last night. Got chased by giant enemies across poisonous swamp that dampens your movement (like those nightmares where you can't run because your feet are weighted down). It's pretty terrifying but once you know the lingering danger, there are enough tools to help you complete the level (Think hard and play smart -- Convenient combat feature is not the only answer to great gaming)

 

[deathindustrial]

Auto-lockon would spoil the element of surprise

There are different types of auto-lock on, a "soft" aim assist would not spoil anything. I would argue that it is the broken aiming mechanics in DS that require lock on in the first place.

I keep harping on it but the soul arrow of the Royal is totally useless without lock on as you basically cannot control where the shot goes without it. Aiming is based on where the character is facing but you really only have fine control over the camera. Even if you get the character facing the right direction, there seems to be a very coarse quantization of the shot direction so that you can only shoot in widely different arcs with little fine control - neither where you want the shot to go.

=)

There is a spot in 2-1 (I think that is where it is at) where you can stand on a raised stone wall across from a lower wooden platform with one of those laughing plump fire tossing Beefeaters. You should be able to stand there and fire off shots in between ducking down to avoid getting set on fire but as it is too far for lock on, it is almost impossible to target the enemy from there.

I haven't tried a bow yet though so that weapon may not be has fubar'd.

Secondly, when lock-on is enabled, the game centers the screen based on the reticule. This will help you tremendously when fighting fast enemies (e.g., fighting Black Phantoms).

I find that the lock-on often causes issues when multiple enemies attack. Getting mobbed by dogs would be a good example, lock on isn't fast enough to deal with it very well but it is very good at causing you to be unable to hit the dog that is actually biting you that second. I know you have stated that the solution is to "not get mobbed" but that is not always possible.

With the current setup, the game gives the player full control of the camera, and also control over whether you want tracking lock-on or not. It is more versatile than "auto-cruise" like feature. Note that you don't need lock-on to kill an enemy.

It seems you do if you are not using a weapon with a really wide arc like the battle axe, or at least it can be really difficult to actually hit anything without it. Well, for us mere mortals anyway.

=)

Once you have died in a level, the game becomes noticeably easier because you know where the danger are. Even with a half-health soul form, the player should be able to clear old enemies relatively quickly and grab their loot.

The grinding gets to be rather, ahem, grinding after a while though. Maybe it is a stats thing. . .all of my stats are still around the 11 - 13 mark so perhaps it will get better once I can actually carry something other than my now +5 rapier.

Oh, is there actually any point to going back to human form other than to be completist?

Cheers

 

[patsu]

There are different types of auto-lock on, a "soft" aim assist would not spoil anything. I would argue that it is the broken aiming mechanics in DS that require lock on in the first place.

The reticule needs to track fast moving characters because they will circle you very quickly. Soft aiming would be useless against the skeletons and black phantoms for example. It may work better in shooters where you seldom need to engage enemies up close and personal.

I keep harping on it but the soul arrow of the Royal is totally useless without lock on as you basically cannot control where the shot goes without it. Aiming is based on where the character is facing but you really only have fine control over the camera. Even if you get the character facing the right direction, there seems to be a very coarse quantization of the shot direction so that you can only shoot in widely different arcs with little fine control - neither where you want the shot to go.

=)

Aiming is tied to the lock-on reticule so that you can move and shoot in third person view. As it stands, magic is extremely powerful in DS. You can kill the toughest boss with magic alone.

Use a bow if you want precise, first person view aiming.

There is a spot in 2-1 (I think that is where it is at) where you can stand on a raised stone wall across from a lower wooden platform with one of those laughing plump fire tossing Beefeaters. You should be able to stand there and fire off shots in between ducking down to avoid getting set on fire but as it is too far for lock on, it is almost impossible to target the enemy from there.

I think that's intentional level design, not necessarily a weapon range limitation. There are many cases where Soul Arrow range is more than adequate. Even if the Soul Arrow has longer range in the above scenario you mentioned, they may still put the Fat Official slightly out of range so that you go near it.

I haven't tried a bow yet though so that weapon may not be has fubar'd.

From your posts, it sounds more like you're not comfortable with the level design because it puts you in danger deliberately.

I haven't seen a fubar'd DS weapon yet.

There are weapons that won't work in narrow corridor, there are weapons with long and short range, there are weapons ineffective against certain monsters.

I find that the lock-on often causes issues when multiple enemies attack. Getting mobbed by dogs would be a good example, lock on isn't fast enough to deal with it very well but it is very good at causing you to be unable to hit the dog that is actually biting you that second. I know you have stated that the solution is to "not get mobbed" but that is not always possible.

Yes, it is difficult to target the right dogs when they attack in packs. Then again, when you swing, you may hit multiple dogs at the same time. I usually back away and take Soul Arrow shots. Or swing the weapon without lock on.

It seems you do if you are not using a weapon with a really wide arc like the battle axe, or at least it can be really difficult to actually hit anything without it. Well, for us mere mortals anyway.

=)

Don't use that weapon if it doesn't fit your style and situation. ^_^
Each weapon has its characteristics. Some are great for causing certain kind of damage, some have slower swing, etc.

People told me the magic sword, Makoto is great. I tried it, couldn't kill skeletons with the katana despite having larger damage. So I dumped it back at Thomas'.

The grinding gets to be rather, ahem, grinding after a while though. Maybe it is a stats thing. . .all of my stats are still around the 11 - 13 mark so perhaps it will get better once I can actually carry something other than my now +5 rapier.

Oh, is there actually any point to going back to human form other than to be completist?

I chucked away my rapier long ago and used the Crescent Falchion from 4-1. I went there right after beating 1-2. The Dragon Sword in 2-1 is good too. I use that more now. It has very nice fire damage and effect.

Human form is good for co-op session and it allows you to change World Tendency darker (by committing suicide in the level). Human form also has longer life but deal smaller damage.

 

[specwarGP2]

I don't necessarily agree with any of the above. I think the concept of Demon's Souls is really intereting and unique, but its implementations is at best average.

Most of the issues I have with the game are in its controls. Having to click the camera-stick to lock onto a target instantly takes my hands off of action buttons. This is not an ok-implementation of controls where a death can mean hours or more of retracing my steps to get me back to where I was, not to mention the time wasted in terms of trying to actually progress. Add to this the feeling of frustration you feel by the trial-and-error level design - which would be ok if the game was more forgiving - teads to a feeling that depth here has been replaced by difficultly.

I agree with this. The lock on can be extremely annoying. it's very annoying in NG+ because the enemies take out a lot of health when they hit you.

Lock on needs a lot of work for DS2. I would like it to be that it only locks on to enemies you can see, and you can engage a lock on as long as you can see them, even if its a tiny bit. Right now you can be right in front of an enemy and lock on wont engage because you arent looking at them directly or long enough or whatever reason. Also the distance for lock on needs to be longer... magic users are at a serious disadvantage because of this.

Oh and another thing. If I raise my shield, I want my character to be able to strafe and be locked into the forward facing position. What good is it to be able to hold up your shield if its not facing towards the enemy?

 

[patsu]

I don't think lock-on depends on line-of-sight at all. The game will swing me around when someone is above or behind me. It's more proximity based. You can indeed lock on to a partially obscured enemy (e.g. on the 4-1 cliffs).

Magic users get very powerful area attack spells (e.g. Gods Wrath, FireStorm) when the enemy is near the character.

It is probably how the game balances out in NG+ (well, and NG too). The lock-on is not perfect but it is useful enough to get serious about the battles. I am not sure if there is a well rounded lock-on in this game given the variety of scenarios and enemies.

 

[specwarGP2]

I don't think lock-on depends on line-of-sight at all. The game will swing me around when someone is above or behind me. It's more proximity based.

It cant be proximity based. Ok in 2-1. the passageway that has fog over the doorway and is guarded by 3 dudes with flame spears. Its right by where you first gain access to the shortcut by breaking through the wagon thats blocking it.

Ok so getting back to the passageway... once you enter the fog the passageway slopes up and theres a corner at the top where there's a pickaxe guy waiting to ambush you. If lockon worked by proximity, I would be able to lock on to this dude as soon as I turn the corner, but I cant. In fact you cant lock on to him until he turns the corner and is actually coming down the passage way for a fair distance. In ng+ this is really annoying because he takes off tons of energy.

Also those octopus head dudes in 3-1... you can be waiting for them on one side of a doorway and they will be like a few feet away from you on the other side and you still can't lock on to them, even though you can see their entire body! you have to wait for them to walk through the doorway then you can lock on. So annoying!!!!

 

[patsu]

Do these situations occur only near doorways ?

I am asking because I saw a bug during the Halloween event. The dual katana black skeleton outside 4-2 could be not locked on when it passed through the doorway. It was directly in front of me. I had to run away, and give it another go at a different position.

In another instance, the Black Phantom skeletons in 4-2 (after the 2 invisible women) would disappear between the doorway and the sharp turn outside. I could lock on to it but I couldn't see the skeleton at all.

In general, I use a bow to attack/aggro them. I think the blast from God's Wrath can attack through wall too (The guide says so). So you don't have to worry about Magic users too much.

As a melee only user, you can throw Soul Remains to lure the enemy out.

But back to your original point, I think you could be right. Enemies behind and above me are still within my line of sight. It is possible to lock-on as long as you have partial view of the enemy. I do that often on the 4-1 cliffs.

 

[specwarGP2]

Do these situations occur only near doorways ?

no not only in doorways. in 1-2, you cross the first bridge span with the dragon flying over and breathing fire. when you get to the tower and go up the stairs you will encounter a dude with a spear on the sthe stairwell. You can clearly see him and he will be in lock on range, but you cannot lock on to him until he starts moving towards you.

The lock on is unpredictable. I know it's a combination of distance, view and some other factor(s). This game would be outstanding if it wasnt for the annoying lock on issues. As it is, its still pretty good though :smile:

 

[patsu]

Hmm... I haven't have this happen to me other than the 2 cases I mentioned above.

It sounds more like a bug than a design issue. What weapons were you using ?

 

[2real4tv]

just got my copy

 

[Yemeth]

just got my copy

Good luck and enjoy!

 

[corduroygt]

I just got done with the tutorial as the royalty class and lock on just kills it for me, I'll probably retry as a hack and slasher. I am against using R3 and L3 in games for critical functions such as this. They should be treated as select and/or start buttons, and used only for secondary functions.
Not only it's a pain to lock on, the range is only about 10 meters, sort of defeats the purpose of the whole lock on thing.

 

[patsu]

Heh heh, I see many don't like the lock-on. At one point, I was trying to think of a better way too. But after seeing all the enemies so far, I can understand why they chose the current solution.

Btw, even if the ranged attack is only 10 feet away, it can be a lot safer than you think. At the starting levels, many melee enemies can kill you easily. But the "useless" Soul Arrow is a one-hit kill to almost all the enemies in 1-1. You have free MP-regen ring too. The game wouldn't be Demon's Souls if you can one-shot all the enemies from a comfortable distance, and don't need to spend a single $$ to buy ammo so to speak.

If you want really long range attack, use a Compound Long Bow. You can target enemies even when they are not locked on.


I am left with 1-3 and 1-4 now. Currently levelling up my character so that I can wear the Gloom Armor, Purple Flame Shield and yet roll comfortably at the same time. Also have 3 sidequests to do (2 Black World Tendency events).

 

[oramay]

no not only in doorways. in 1-2, you cross the first bridge span with the dragon flying over and breathing fire. when you get to the tower and go up the stairs you will encounter a dude with a spear on the sthe stairwell. You can clearly see him and he will be in lock on range, but you cannot lock on to him until he starts moving towards you.

The lock on is unpredictable. I know it's a combination of distance, view and some other factor(s). This game would be outstanding if it wasnt for the annoying lock on issues. As it is, its still pretty good though :smile:

I think the 1-2 soldier is a glitch. I've locked onto many enemies on stairs throughout the game and he is the only one I can remember having problems with.

The lock on seems to depend on potential obstacle between my character and the enemies. If it's completely open, I can lock on without looking at that enemy, sometimes leading to camera swing. If the game detects there may be obstacle in between, I'd need to have most of that enemy in view of my camera to lock on. Even my character on screen can block my view of an enemy and make the game unwilling to lock on. These are the assumptions that served me well anyway. I also have my mind ready to lock off and run away whenever I sense trouble.

I didn't expect people to have many problems with the lock toggle in this game as I felt it's fine. It may be a result of different fighting styles. There are occasions where I do get into trouble because of camera swing, but I doubt it happened more than 10 times in my playthrough. Anticipating how the lock may work and killing a lot of enemies with a bow from distance probably helped me.

 

[specwarGP2]

I think the 1-2 soldier is a glitch. I've locked onto many enemies on stairs throughout the game and he is the only one I can remember having problems with.

It's not a glitch. the lock on does not function intuitively. try playing as a magic user and you'll see what I mean. Here's another example. 4- 2 when you kill the first reaper and head down the cliff ledges. I'll kill one of the gold terminators then the lock on will - instead of locking onto the other terminator which is like 10 ft away from me - lock onto the manta ray hundreds of feet behind me, causing me to fall down to my death! WTF!!!

 

[patsu]

When that happes, it's usually because the mantra ray is nearer to you or it's directly in your line of sight. It can be hard to judge distance without any frame of reference for the flying monster. The mantra ray could be (is !) bigger than the golden skelly. If you have one fall on you just before it dies, you'd know they are not small.

I love fighting with the "baby" mantra rays in 4-4.

 

[szymku]

I "love" when invading black phantoms are stabbing me in the back while I'm fighiting other enemies... If they are afraid of fighting proper duel, why they invade??

 

[Carl B]

You can fight melee effectively in this game without lock-on at all; you just have to get used to it. I do it all the time when I can't afford the drama of having the camera whipped around in areas I know are prone to that. In some fights I just prefer being able to run and dash around anyway. I have become extremely good at locking on and breaking lock as well - speed in that action will give you a lot more flexibility. I'm a magic user primarily as well specwar and the cloud ray's in 4-2... yeah. My advice is to get closer to the goldies, lock-on, and then start walking backwards. That's how I handle it. By the way I had a lot of issues in that same location... some class types are just better suited for different areas I think, and for magic guys walking around that ledge with the cloud ray's sniping at you just isn't our cup of tea.

@szymku: As soon as a black phantom invades, you need to stop what you're doing, get to as 'clear' a location as possible, or an area you are comfortable with, and prepare for combat. I was walking around with 120K souls once when a black phantom got me from behind (souls I never recovered). I don't blame him - the entire level was clear and it was my fault for not realizing he would be so close at hand. I was in the tunnels of 2-2 and I was just too laid back about it when the message flashed. Normally I am a black phantom slayer extraordinaire, but because most of my invasions have taken place near the start of levels, I guess I just thought they normally appear near the start. Not so obviously - they appear near wherever you are.

By the way I'm playing Dragon Age: Origins now. ~9 hours in, not a bad game. But it doesn't 'impress' me like Demon's Souls does... I think DS is the more thrilling experience for sure. But it is of course a different sub-genre as well. I'll have more thoughts on Dragon Age as I go through,

 

[szymku]

DS is simply extraordinary... I'm on 82 soul level and 100 hours into the game so one can assume that I'm simply struggling... But those past hours were pure fun, despite of constant dying, loosing souls and searching for a proper tactics for each bossfight which is quite difficult....
I,m yet to play Dragon Age and I hope I'll enjoy it... cool story, cool heroes in fancy outfits, colorful world But after reading several reviews and having played (and finished) Baldur Gate and Neverwinter Nights I know that this experience won't be as special and deep as DS.

 

[patsu]

You can fight melee effectively in this game without lock-on at all; you just have to get used to it. I do it all the time when I can't afford the drama of having the camera whipped around in areas I know are prone to that. In some fights I just prefer being able to run and dash around anyway. I have become extremely good at locking on and breaking lock as well - speed in that action will give you a lot more flexibility. I'm a magic user primarily as well specwar and the cloud ray's in 4-2... yeah. My advice is to get closer to the goldies, lock-on, and then start walking backwards. That's how I handle it. By the way I had a lot of issues in that same location... some class types are just better suited for different areas I think, and for magic guys walking around that ledge with the cloud ray's sniping at you just isn't our cup of tea.

I tried melee'ing Golden Skeletons and Black Phantoms around that corner too; fell to death twice. It's simply not a good place to raise hell regardless of character class.

In the end, the simplest and safest method worked repeatedly. It's the one you suggested. Lure them out using your own body. While you walk backwards, you may hit them with Soul Arrows, regular arrows, etc slowly. Soul Remains should work just as well to lure them out of the corner.

@szymku: As soon as a black phantom invades, you need to stop what you're doing, get to as 'clear' a location as possible, or an area you are comfortable with, and prepare for combat. I was walking around with 120K souls once when a black phantom got me from behind (souls I never recovered). I don't blame him - the entire level was clear and it was my fault for not realizing he would be so close at hand. I was in the tunnels of 2-2 and I was just too laid back about it when the message flashed. Normally I am a black phantom slayer extraordinaire, but because most of my invasions have taken place near the start of levels, I guess I just thought they normally appear near the start. Not so obviously - they appear near wherever you are.

They should spawn from Archstone I think. At least those I fought came from there. Sometimes, I had to wait a while before they found me.

Also I agree with your statement above that you can fight without lock-on. In fact, when I'm using my Dragon Sword, enemies behind me can get hurt too. The swing is wider (side to back). I have some trouble in narrow corridors though, but not too bad.

I also experimented with BP duel location. I tried awkward places that are dangerous for both of us (e.g., the 4-1 cliff side), as well as wide open plain. I much prefer the latter, especially those with long windy road to me. I could arrow them as they ran towards me.

By the way I'm playing Dragon Age: Origins now. ~9 hours in, not a bad game. But it doesn't 'impress' me like Demon's Souls does... I think DS is the more thrilling experience for sure. But it is of course a different sub-genre as well. I'll have more thoughts on Dragon Age as I go through,

Let me know how it goes. I probably can't get another long game until my workload dies down though.


EDIT: For new players: ALWAYS wear the thief ring, unless you are out looking for fights.