PS3 and Automatic Scaling.

[Gradthrawn]

you can try this one Link

seems to be on sale also

WideScreen, DVI-D, HDCP compatible and a 8ms response time. Thank you very much! Now to hunt AVSForum to see how well its scaler works (native 1680 x 1050) in regards to image quality, lag, etc.

 

[mrboo]

So what about the problems raised repeatedly in the thread?

i) Some TVs (including some Sony TVs) don't accept a 720p input at all and on these TVs the PS3 drops back to 480p rather than to 1080i due to there being no scaler.

ii) Some TVs have crappy scalers that give worse results than the 360s built in scaler (which is actually pretty good).

iii) Using the scaler in the TV will often result in noticeable latency / lag whereas the 360s scaler is lag free.

1. Thats just bad marketing by Sony, and complete stupidity by the consumer. At work we had a new Sony LCD rear-projection TV arrive in store. It had some big letters in bold black that said "HD-READY". Now i was quite shocked as it was relativly cheap set so i took it out of its wrapping and as i glimpsed at the back of TV i saw something that shocked me, NO component/DVI/VGA, Basically Sony had used 720p LCD pannels in the display itself but did'nt include the correct video inputs that would allow the TV to recieve HD signals. Thats a common mistake made by many people, they assume that just because a display is based on plasma or LCD technology that its automatically fully HD compliant. If someone here has a Sony plasma or LCD that does'nt accpet HD 720p its there own fault as they should of checked before they made the purchase.

2. The only TV's that give worse scaling results then 360 are cheap TV's, i really dont see how someone can buy a cheap set and expect magic from it. Its NOT gonna happen.

3. Again cheap TV sets produce lagg, on LCD based technology displays or could also be the response time,

I know most the coments i made are harsh but its stuff like this that i get asked everyday at work by people looking to purchase a new HD-TV, im just grateful we only sell 3 low end TV sets as all the other stuff is high-end as is the Home Cinema equipment we sell ( i can get you a cracking deal on a Lexicon MC12 processor if you like ) Remember people CHECK the following :

1. The sets native resolution, it needs to be 1280x720 MININUM
2. If the TV pass's check number one then look for inputs that can recieve a HD signal, they are COMPONENT, DVI, VGA, HDMI

 

[mrboo]

You can stand by the statement all you want, it doesn't make it any less wrong. Now start back at the beginning of the thread and try again.

I don't see it as a 1080i issue, I see it as an inflexibility issue. The fact is, on the Xbox 360 I set one resolution and that resolution is always pumped out. I don't need to look at the game to ensure that the resolution is supported. I don't need to worry that my TV might have a native resolution of 1024X768 or 1360X768. I don't have to trust that the scaler in my set is good.

It just works.

1024x768 is NOT HD and 1360x768 is a few pixels off being 16:9

 

[Sis]

Mmm i'd love to test that theory. It really depends on the TV, and these days, HDTVs usually have more than decent scalers. A test showing that the X360 scaler is somewhat better than the ones in, say, the top 10 best selling HDTVs in the market has not been made public so i'd refrain from making statements like the above out of pure imagination. Unless you are actually basing that statement on real proof, in which case i'd love to see it!
...
Again, HDTVs sold in the last couple of years have been mostly lag free. Besides, the lag would be there whether you do feed a 720p signal or not simply because, in the case of LCD HDTVs, the set still needs to scale the signal to its native resolution, which 99% of the time is that weird 1360*768 resolution (on PS3, which does not support that res, it's fine for 360).
HDTVs with "noticeable latency/lag" should not be bought, and if bought, should be returned as faulty or not fit for use. Or people just don't notice/care, which is probably the case most of the time.

You're point is about current and future sets having good to great scalers (which I disagree with; I think the budget line sets will still have cheapass scalers in them); but regardless, the point is that a bunch of existing sets have poor scalers in them. The early Samsung DLPs had a terrible lag issue, supposedly (though I should admit that I'm not positive it was scaler related and not basic video processing related). I know both Samsung and Toshiba sets offer a "Game" mode that decreases lag somehow, the point being that the components used are not necessarily optimized for gaming and adding a gaming optimized setting was a feature.

Actually, I think I might have just proven that gaming on TVs suck and should be avoided at all costs. Back to pen-and-paper RPGs for me!

 

[London Geezer]

1. Thats just bad marketing by Sony, and complete stupidity by the consumer. At work we had a new Sony LCD rear-projection TV arrive in store. It had some big letters in bold black that said "HD-READY". Now i was quite shocked as it was relativly cheap set so i took it out of its wrapping and as i glimpsed at the back of TV i saw something that shocked me, NO component/DVI/VGA, Basically Sony had used 720p LCD pannels in the display itself but did'nt include the correct video inputs that would allow the TV to recieve HD signals. Thats a common mistake made by many people, they assume that just because a display is based on plasma or LCD technology that its automatically fully HD compliant. If someone here has a Sony plasma or LCD that does'nt accpet HD 720p its there own fault as they should of checked before they made the purchase.

2. The only TV's that give worse scaling results then 360 are cheap TV's, i really dont see how someone can buy a cheap set and expect magic from it. Its NOT gonna happen.

3. Again cheap TV sets produce lagg, on LCD based technology displays or could also be the response time,

I know most the coments i made are harsh but its stuff like this that i get asked everyday at work by people looking to purchase a new HD-TV, im just grateful we only sell 3 low end TV sets as all the other stuff is high-end as is the Home Cinema equipment we sell ( i can get you a cracking deal on a Lexicon MC12 processor if you like ) Remember people CHECK the following :

1. The sets native resolution, it needs to be 1280x720 MININUM
2. If the TV pass's check number one then look for inputs that can recieve a HD signal, they are COMPONENT, DVI, VGA, HDMI

You missed a very small detail.

The HD-Ready standard is something that was created by Europeans, for European. And it's fabulous for us as it protects us.

The US has had HDTVs for a decade, and initially sets did not accept 720p at all.

It's not "stupidity by the consumers" because they were never made aware that one day this little thing called playstation3 would come out and have games that do not support 1080i at all, forcing them to play at 480p. I blame the games by the way, even though a scaler in the PS3 would have been nice.

So it's not as simple as blaming the consumers for being "stupid" and Sony for being "bad at marketing". There are many variables in the equation.

 

[mrboo]

The early Samsung DLPs had a terrible lag issue

Thats was a pretty wide spread problem that affected alot of early DLP based technology display, hence why my store did'nt start selling DLP display untill they had been out for 18 months and got rid of most of the problems. Im still not a big fan of DLP either

 

[Sis]

1024x768 is NOT HD and 1360x768 is a few pixels off being 16:9

Tell that to all the LCD and plasma flat panel owners out there. I'm sure they will love to be told this. Their heads might asplode!

(PS--note I said native resolution.)

 

[Sis]

2. The only TV's that give worse scaling results then 360 are cheap TV's

You keep saying this. What makes you say the 360's scaler is poor? I've heard nothing but good things about it, and I've used it at several different resolutions across two different TVs. My visual acuity is not as good as others (i'm looking at you, kyleb), but I've never found it lacking.

 

[London Geezer]

1024x768 is NOT HD and 1360x768 is a few pixels off being 16:9

Actually, since you seem to be flaunting the HD-Standard left right and center, i think you should know that according to the HD-Ready standard, the only limitation on resolution is that the set has to have 720 horizontal lines. There is nothing covering vertical resolution. Therefore all the 1024*768 plasmas sold today in the UK, and they're the vast majority, are absolutely compliant to the HD-Ready standard.

So, in brief, 1024*768 IS HD in Europe. By law. And you know you can't argue with the law.

 

[mrboo]

You missed a very small detail.

The HD-Ready standard is something that was created by Europeans, for European. And it's fabulous for us as it protects us.

The US has had HDTVs for a decade, and initially sets did not accept 720p at all.

It's not "stupidity by the consumers" because they were never made aware that one day this little thing called playstation3 would come out and have games that do not support 1080i at all, forcing them to play at 480p. I blame the games by the way, even though a scaler in the PS3 would have been nice.

So it's not as simple as blaming the consumers for being "stupid" and Sony for being "bad at marketing". There are many variables in the equation.

The HD standard is aload of rubbish, ive seen TV's for sale in currys that have HD-READY stamped all over the display and its box, then it says the displays native resolution is 640x480 ( not even widescreen either ) Companys know that if they stamp "HD-READY" all over there not so HD-READY display they'll sell more.

Take This

For example, its sends all the right signals to the consumer, HD-READY, WIDESCREEN, HDMI, but then look at the reslotion, 1440x90 is a 16:10 aspect ratio, scaleing 16:9 video to 16:10 is HORRIBLE. And TBH its looks like a PC moniter with a TV tuner welded on, Theres ALOT of pc moniters going around at that screen size ( 19" ) with that resolution aswel.

 

[mrboo]

Actually, since you seem to be flaunting the HD-Standard left right and center, i think you should know that according to the HD-Ready standard, the only limitation on resolution is that the set has to have 720 horizontal lines. There is nothing covering vertical resolution. Therefore all the 1024*768 plasmas sold today in the UK, and they're the vast majority, are absolutely compliant to the HD-Ready standard.

So, in brief, 1024*768 IS HD in Europe. By law. And you know you can't argue with the law.

Only the HD standard requires 16:9 WIDESCREEN, 1024x768 is 4:3.

 

[Sis]

Only the HD standard requires 16:9 WIDESCREEN, 1024x768 is 4:3.

Two words: non-square pixels. I don't understand it either--ask kyleb to explain.

But, afaik, plasmas are indeed HD and can resolve the full HD 720p image.

 

[PARANOiA]

2. The only TV's that give worse scaling results then 360 are cheap TV's, i really dont see how someone can buy a cheap set and expect magic from it. Its NOT gonna happen.

So the Xbox360's solution is "magic" now?

Repeat after me... Sony dropped the ball here. Getting mad at TV manufacturers, or calling consumers (including ME) "stupid" isn't helping. You just look like an immature fool.

 

[Geo]

I stand by my words I still dont see what all the fuss is about, 1080i and....interlace flicker............*judders*

DailyTech on it now: http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=4971

So the situation right now is that anyone with an HDTV that's capable of only 480i, 480p, and 1080i will be unable to play games such as Resistance, NHL 2K7, Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07 and Need for Speed Carbon at anything higher than 480p.

I'm tempted to say its a tiny band of folks who bought HD in ~2000 or so (and haven't already upgraded) that would be f*cked by this, but it seems we have three of them on this thread. . . .

 

[mrboo]

So the Xbox360's solution is "magic" now?

Repeat after me... Sony dropped the ball here. Getting mad at TV manufacturers, or calling consumers (including ME) "stupid" isn't helping. You just look like an immature fool.

No im just someone who gets asked this crap 8 hrs a day by clueless people at work.

 

[heliosphere]

Mmm i'd love to test that theory. It really depends on the TV, and these days, HDTVs usually have more than decent scalers. A test showing that the X360 scaler is somewhat better than the ones in, say, the top 10 best selling HDTVs in the market has not been made public so i'd refrain from making statements like the above out of pure imagination. Unless you are actually basing that statement on real proof, in which case i'd love to see it!

Well, my HDTV is a ~3 year old 32" CRT (which got very good reviews at the time) that doesn't do native 720p display but does have a built in scaler that will optionally convert a 720p signal to either 540p or 1080i. My 360 looks noticeably better when set to output 1080i than when set to output 720p with the TV doing the scaling. I've heard other people report similar results. Not scientific proof admittedly but strong anecdotal evidence.

Again, HDTVs sold in the last couple of years have been mostly lag free. Besides, the lag would be there whether you do feed a 720p signal or not simply because, in the case of LCD HDTVs, the set still needs to scale the signal to its native resolution, which 99% of the time is that weird 1360*768 resolution (on PS3, which does not support that res, it's fine for 360).
HDTVs with "noticeable latency/lag" should not be bought, and if bought, should be returned as faulty or not fit for use. Or people just don't notice/care, which is probably the case most of the time.

But the problems we're talking about mostly affect the early adopters like me who bought an HDTV a few years ago when Plasma and LCD were quite a lot more expensive and there was no such thing as 1080p or HDMI.

 

[mrboo]

I'm tempted to say its a tiny band of folks who bought HD in ~2000 or so (and haven't already upgraded) that would be f*cked by this, but it seems we have three of them on this thread. . . .

Thats it sems like it

 

[mrboo]

Well, my HDTV is a ~3 year old 32" CRT (which got very good reviews at the time) that doesn't do native 720p display but does have a built in scaler that will optionally convert a 720p signal to either 540p or 1080i. My 360 looks noticeably better when set to output 1080i than when set to output 720p with the TV doing the scaling. I've heard other people report similar results. Not scientific proof admittedly but strong anecdotal evidence.

TV scalers have come ALONG way in 3 years TBH

 

[22psi]

Great my 2 year old CRT HDTV from Samsung is 1080i only

 

[heliosphere]

TV scalers have come ALONG way in 3 years TBH

Ok, so maybe this problem is mostly a big deal for those who didn't buy their HDTVs in the last 6 months. There's quite a few people in that situation though and I'm betting most of them don't particularly want to replace their HDTVs yet. I'm holding off on upgrading mine to see which of the various new display technologies that have been talked about for the last few years actually pans out to be the best, and also for the prices to drop further.