PS3 and Automatic Scaling.
- Thread starter Gradthrawn
- Start date
Personally i am very, very, very surprised that there is no scaler in PS3. Or that apparently the one that's there can't be used, whatever that means...
This may be cold, but IMHO, this is only an issue for people who don't have HDMI. Almost every HD capable device offers a builtin scaler, the TV/Projector, the A/V Receiver/switcher, etc. In older sets they tended to suck, but in newer sets, quality commodity scalers are common. The Xbox360 doesn't have access to scaler chips any better than manufacturers who built sets today. The reality is, except in speciality cases like high-end videophile units (ala iScanHD DVDO), the scaling is pretty much the same -- yes, scaling digital data is not a black art. (the horror that was upscaling in most early HD sets was mostly encountered in dealing with 480i->720p/1080i and cadence issues)
The question is what to do with people who have non-flat screen analog tube sets, the kind of people who mistakenly believe that they have a real HDTV (nope, none of these old sets can really display 1920x1080i, sure, they can accept the single, but the CRT they use can't deliver anywhere near that resolution, just go read up on the measured resolution of top-end CRT HDTVs on AVSForum)
There are two solutions: 1) burn extra PS3 RAM for a larger front buffer (when not in render-to-texture mode) or 2) require them to use an external scaler.
Franky, if I was Sony, I'd sell these people a DVI->Component dongle with builtin commodity scaler. Unlike the case of the XBOX360, which, IMHO, completely fubar'ed their design by not providng a way to get digital framebuffer data out the AV multiport (hence, no DVI), Sony is in a better position. The HDMI port provides a possible "out" for them. There are in fact, plenty of HDMI/DVI->Component/VGA converters out there today, sold to help people with older sets, but in reality, used to strip away HDCP. (I should know, I own one which I use in pass-thru mode to strip HDCP for my non-HDCP projector, instead of using the analog-out) They are price today, but that's because they are mostly made by small market players, not mass produced, and there is low demand. Sony however could probably significantly cost reduce such a dongle, especially with a custom design.
If they were smart, they'd take the MS approach, like MS did with HDMI. Remain silent, leave things a mystery as to what they're going to do, while saying a "solution is coming", and then selling their dongle later. I don't like reserving extra RAM just so people with geriatric and make-believe HD CRT sets can get their flickery 1080i fix. It burdens everyone else, both 480p SD users, and those with HDMI capable sets.
Most of the PS3s that will be sold will probably be sold to early adopters anyway. Some are being sold in bundles that require buying a new HDTV. I really hope Sony doesn't waste 3-6% of PS3 VRAM on a solution that can be rectified in the future by HW.
The question is what to do with people who have non-flat screen analog tube sets, the kind of people who mistakenly believe that they have a real HDTV (nope, none of these old sets can really display 1920x1080i, sure, they can accept the single, but the CRT they use can't deliver anywhere near that resolution, just go read up on the measured resolution of top-end CRT HDTVs on AVSForum)
There are two solutions: 1) burn extra PS3 RAM for a larger front buffer (when not in render-to-texture mode) or 2) require them to use an external scaler.
Franky, if I was Sony, I'd sell these people a DVI->Component dongle with builtin commodity scaler. Unlike the case of the XBOX360, which, IMHO, completely fubar'ed their design by not providng a way to get digital framebuffer data out the AV multiport (hence, no DVI), Sony is in a better position. The HDMI port provides a possible "out" for them. There are in fact, plenty of HDMI/DVI->Component/VGA converters out there today, sold to help people with older sets, but in reality, used to strip away HDCP. (I should know, I own one which I use in pass-thru mode to strip HDCP for my non-HDCP projector, instead of using the analog-out) They are price today, but that's because they are mostly made by small market players, not mass produced, and there is low demand. Sony however could probably significantly cost reduce such a dongle, especially with a custom design.
If they were smart, they'd take the MS approach, like MS did with HDMI. Remain silent, leave things a mystery as to what they're going to do, while saying a "solution is coming", and then selling their dongle later. I don't like reserving extra RAM just so people with geriatric and make-believe HD CRT sets can get their flickery 1080i fix. It burdens everyone else, both 480p SD users, and those with HDMI capable sets.
Most of the PS3s that will be sold will probably be sold to early adopters anyway. Some are being sold in bundles that require buying a new HDTV. I really hope Sony doesn't waste 3-6% of PS3 VRAM on a solution that can be rectified in the future by HW.
Wouldn't you be able to slip in some code that has an extra FB and upscale the BB to that? It might not be pretty, but it'd work. Although that could need the required resources to be freed up from elsewhere in the game, meaning engineering cutbacks in textures or what have you.
What I don't understand is Insomniac's role in this. I honestly think that they have worked under the assumption that the PS3 has a scaler on board. And I think it actually does, but for some reason it may not be properly supported yet in the OS settings. It probably has to do with automatic resetting of the resolutions, which is currently set conservatively (so that you always have at least some picture) and rather favors digital systems that report their best resolutions.
Has noone identified one on the pictures of the dissected PS3 yet?
Of course, this is also what I want to believe - perhaps Sony just decided to save some money here. But then they did that without telling Insomniac. The last option is that Insomniac screwed up some how, or they really thought they'd hit 1080p and then when they didn't manage it thought too late about including 1080i as an output.
Has noone identified one on the pictures of the dissected PS3 yet?
Of course, this is also what I want to believe - perhaps Sony just decided to save some money here. But then they did that without telling Insomniac. The last option is that Insomniac screwed up some how, or they really thought they'd hit 1080p and then when they didn't manage it thought too late about including 1080i as an output.
*raises hand*
Our 42" plasma will not accept 720p.
I went into a shop about 9 months ago, and the vast majority of HD sets for sale were 1080i. No HD TV here so no 'HD ready'.
I did wonder why sony had resolutions ordered as 480i, 480p, 1080i, 720p, 1080p in the OS.
The irony in this is that it will hit early adopters hardest, and early adopters are the ones buying the PS3.
Our 42" plasma will not accept 720p.
I went into a shop about 9 months ago, and the vast majority of HD sets for sale were 1080i. No HD TV here so no 'HD ready'.
I did wonder why sony had resolutions ordered as 480i, 480p, 1080i, 720p, 1080p in the OS.
The irony in this is that it will hit early adopters hardest, and early adopters are the ones buying the PS3.
This one won't affect me at all, only because I sold my Samsung 30" HDTV CRT (you can see it in the 360 edition of the 'show your setup thread') to my friend. One of the reasons he bought it from me was to game in HD and specifically for the PS3, talking to him now he says if he can only get 480p he may as well get the Wii.
While it is true that CRT HDTVs do not truly have all of the horizontal lines of resolution, they still outshine their SD counterparts, especially when feeding it something like D-VHS, which by the way was/is 1080i and still has early adopters comparing Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD to it.
The upconversion of everything else while bothersome will not resonate with me either as the HD A1 and the 360 HD DVD do a great job in the formers case and a really good job in the latter.
While it is true that CRT HDTVs do not truly have all of the horizontal lines of resolution, they still outshine their SD counterparts, especially when feeding it something like D-VHS, which by the way was/is 1080i and still has early adopters comparing Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD to it.
The upconversion of everything else while bothersome will not resonate with me either as the HD A1 and the 360 HD DVD do a great job in the formers case and a really good job in the latter.
I bought my HDTV 3 years ago.
My 47" Widescreen Samsung has two component inputs. One is 480i/480p autosensing and the other is 480p/1080i autosensing. It will not take a 720p input. I am able to use the XBox 1 with XBMC at 1080i, but not 720p.
My dish vip211 is feeding a 1080i stream as 720p would show up black as well.
In my case at least, I plan on purchasing 2 new HDTVs next year sometime to replace the one in SDTV in the master bedroom with a 25-27" wall LCD and then do the same with a nice 55" or so dlp in the living room, relegating the 47" to the spare/guest room. (my football watching room when the wife insists on watching her shows)
My 47" Widescreen Samsung has two component inputs. One is 480i/480p autosensing and the other is 480p/1080i autosensing. It will not take a 720p input. I am able to use the XBox 1 with XBMC at 1080i, but not 720p.
My dish vip211 is feeding a 1080i stream as 720p would show up black as well.
In my case at least, I plan on purchasing 2 new HDTVs next year sometime to replace the one in SDTV in the master bedroom with a 25-27" wall LCD and then do the same with a nice 55" or so dlp in the living room, relegating the 47" to the spare/guest room. (my football watching room when the wife insists on watching her shows)
Yeah, i guess their analog(?) scaler is the key here, it makes it possible to actually make games in low res and then scale it to HD (COD3 anyone?). Really impressive..
It´s gonna be interesting to see how easy such tricks will be to pull off on the PS3, and if it´s possible at all?
As a sidenote, why didn´t i here any complaints about this issue on the XBOX, is it certain that the XBOX didn´t have a scaler?
With the xbox, you could select which resolution your TV supported and then it ouput the highest available resolution. However, i dont think that the xbox was pushed as a Hi-def gaming experience the way these consoles are. I think from a marketing and functional stnadpoint, HD is much more intrinsic to the experience you are paying for and if you own an HDTV, people feel like they should get the full monty for their $400-$600.
There were probably complaints on the xbox but given the installed base of HDTVs at the time, and the relative death of HD games available, it was probably relegated to that very small niche.
EDIT:no such thing as an analog scaler. Scaling is math and therefore must be done in the digital domain.
Johnny Awesome
Veteran
I agree. It's pretty clear that a LOT of people who are the type to get a $600 console at launch are the same people that would have bought an HDTV 3-4 years ago. Sony is trying to bury this for sure.
Joe DeFuria
Legend
Because the X-Box was never touted as a hi-def gaming system.
I have two CRT HDTVs. (One is 4:3 even...needed to fit into a cabinet in the Family Room.). Neither of them support 720p....they are both 1080i only. My cable boxes take care of any conversion of any broadcast 720p source.
When I bought the TVs, I already had an x-box and I knew that X-Box supported 720p for some games, but not 1080i. I was fine with that. (For that matter, the X-Box is currently connected to a standard TV in the kids play-room anyway...)
My assumption was that the next console I get would surely support 1080i properly. (That is the most common HDTV standard in the U.S.) This could end up being a tangible issue here in the U.S., where 720p was not typically a supported resolution of HDTV sets early on. (Outside the U.S., it's probably less of a problem?)
I've been planning on a XBox 360 anyway...but I would have a real issue if I was going to go with a PS3.
it's been noted that Resistance gives an error message when trying to run on a 1080i tv without support where as Gundam just goes black.
So the interpretation is that Insomniac knew enough about the situation to prepare the error message (which is better than a black screen... "oh chit my PS3 just broke" feeling one would get.)
Maybe Sony should have stated that their buyers would not only work a second job to pay for the PS3, they would also be willing to sell their perfectly functioning 3 year old HDTV at a reduced value and buy another one making them work a 2nd 2nd job.
I agree though about the early adopters, we were the ones to buy the first sets of HDTVs, paying 600$ for an OTA HDTV receiver and they wont cater to us. They think we are the ones to just continue to buy the newest things.
I agree though about the early adopters, we were the ones to buy the first sets of HDTVs, paying 600$ for an OTA HDTV receiver and they wont cater to us. They think we are the ones to just continue to buy the newest things.
quest55720
Regular
Expecting a consumer to upgrade a TV they just bought a few years ago just for the PS3 is IMO crapping on the customer. People with a HD-TV fully expect to be able to play thier 600 dollar toy in HD not SD. I bet sony even made tvs that were 1080I only so they very well knew about this but never disclosed it. Almost every device on the market has some kind of built in scaler so should a high end piece like the PS3. What is worse is not telling customers about this in the first place is really crapping on them. Sony has been screeming high def to anyone that would listen but it turns out the 360 is more high def friendly.
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