Project Sword AKA Epic Citadel

Even with a dual-core CPU, that component is still the choking point for actually using the potential of these GPUs for game graphics.

If OpenCL could rebalance the workload even a little for, say, physics (not sure how well that'd go down in a combined OpenGL ES and OpenCL environment), it'd go a long way to keeping both units productive in games.

Is the central processing unit the actual choking point after all or the fact that in a SoC both the CPU and the GPU are struggling for the very same (and already quite low) bandwidth resources?

If the answer would be positive to the latter, then I don't think heterogeneous computing by itself could save much of the day (besides the fact that things in a SoC could be far more complicated since normally we're not talking about 2 types of processing units but a lot more...).

By the way and sorry for the OT: is it a coincidence that for Apple devices the GLBenchmark database doesn't list any details anymore? I just wanted to compare the GL extensions between iPhone4 and iPad (since I recall the list for the first to be significantly longer) and they're not available anymore.
 
Kishonti hopefully intends to launch a database for GLBenchmark 2.0 and soon at that, so hopefully he'll be able to put that missing iOS information back in there with a major site update.

The disappearance of those GLBenchmark details, though, is certainly curious; the scores for the sub-categories of performance, like multitextured fill rate and trilinear accuracy, can still be seen for them by filtering the database by each sub-category.
 
I have to agree with warmi on this one - amazing artwork assets, but nothing that impressive happening in the GPU pipeline (well, outside of the amount of textures seen at each moment) - very sparing use of dynamic lighting, and a nice touch of tone mapping on top. Actually, the technological aspect that impressed me the most in that demo was the apparently very effcient occlusion culling & LOD logic, but that's likely enitirely software-side.

Anyway, tech pickings aside, I'd be very happy if the average game on the A4-generation of idevices looked at the level of that demo. Art is by far the most important aspect of game visuals.
 
So with licensing costs and the amount of development needed for a game like this, can they do it for something which will sell for less than $10?

More than likely closer to $5 than $10?

Why do they need to sell it for less than $10? Are iOS users really entirely unwilling to pay closer to standard game prices just because there's so much cheap stuff out there done on much smaller budgets?
 
Considering it's got one-fourth of the detail to fill and it's clocked only moderately lower, it'd certainly have the performance headroom for it, especially being a TBDR.
 
Why do they need to sell it for less than $10? Are iOS users really entirely unwilling to pay closer to standard game prices just because there's so much cheap stuff out there done on much smaller budgets?

Well the most popular game is Angry Birds, which has simple graphics and is only 99 cents.

Big publishers put out more graphically complex games but they're all under $10 it seems.

A year or two ago, Carmack was saying they wanted to see if the iPhone market would support $10 games and the early iD games started out at that price point but it's unknown whether they sold a lot at that price or had to lower it.

I guess Rage is multiplatform so they can keep iOS price low and make more margin on PCs and consoles.

This Epic game/demo may also be multiplatform so maybe they can price it in line with other iOS games and make up margins elsewhere.
 
Well the most popular game is Angry Birds, which has simple graphics and is only 99 cents.

Yeah ... perhaps related to that is the fact that controls in most "PC" style games available for iOS devices just plain suck.
Even this very demo is barely controllable, I wouldn't want to play real games based on their current control system.
 
Or maybe most people are only willing to spend a couple of bucks at most and they don't mind it, especially for retro games which are mostly side-scrolling or variations on things like Asteroids.

Someone may put out a case with integrated buttons and D-pad and an API to support it. Maybe someone like Logitech.
 
Well the most popular game is Angry Birds, which has simple graphics and is only 99 cents.

Sure, but that doesn't mean people would be unwilling to pay real money for an original new game that's high enough quality... they might be appealing to the same crowd as the standard console/handheld gamers, but I'm sure many of them have iPhones too and are waiting for something to put the hardware to better use.

Big publishers put out more graphically complex games but they're all under $10 it seems.

The thing with those games is they're mainly straight ports, are they not? There you can afford it, but I think people are clamoring for more than this too.

A year or two ago, Carmack was saying they wanted to see if the iPhone market would support $10 games and the early iD games started out at that price point but it's unknown whether they sold a lot at that price or had to lower it.

Now that seems a little crazier, for ancient stuff like Doom and Wolf3d that has been driven into the ground.

I guess Rage is multiplatform so they can keep iOS price low and make more margin on PCs and consoles.

This Epic game/demo may also be multiplatform so maybe they can price it in line with other iOS games and make up margins elsewhere.

I just think that if iOS is supposed to be regarded as such a top tier market leading Nintendo destroying game handheld it really needs to have some high quality exclusives, or else we need to concede entirely to casual gaming.

wco81 said:
Someone may put out a case with integrated buttons and D-pad and an API to support it. Maybe someone like Logitech.

See "iControlPad" (a few others have announced things but iCP is finally right around the corner.. the design is pretty huge though..)
 
I can't help but think you're easily impressed.

I think it was two factors. First the display - I can't focus closer than 35cm, so I'm mostly unable to discern the resolution limit, creating the illusion that if I only could get closer, I'd see more, essentially the illusion of infinite detail.
But more importantly that for years, I've felt that handheld computing is gradually growing in capability to the point where it is "good enough". Projecting into the future, it has been easy to extrapolate that eventually diminishing visual return at the high end and growing capabilities of the hand held devices is going to reach a tipping point. So it was fairly profound to hold my phone in my hand and see it confirmed, right there. It is graphics that is unequivocally superior to the current best selling stationary console. PCs, and the other stationary consoles are a bit better. But that's all they are - a bit better, at a power envelope a thousand times or so higher than the graphics processor of my phone. In a few years, when we're at 20nm or so lithography, they are still going to be a bit better, but the actual visual significance of that bit will have diminished even further.

At what point do we cease to care? Well, going by the success of the Wii and the DS vs. their better graphically endowed competitors, we are already beyond the point where the majority of consumers feel that improved graphics is the major determinant of their enjoyment. This can only get more and more pronounced as the low end keeps improving.

It is natural that people who are very enthusiastic or professional in a field are uncomfortable with the concept of "good enough". But it is absurd to believe that for instance real time radiosity would affect immersion or enjoyment to any significant degree. Or, in fact, at all. By the time we get there, other factors will be vastly more important to our experience, we have simply followed a technological trajectory far beyond the point where it ceased to make any appreciable difference.

The above is, of course, subjective. But I feel that the subjective part is when we have reached "good enough", not if we will. And having seen the Epic Citadel demo and Carmacks Rage demo, I'd argue that for a large part of the gaming population, we're already there.
 
Yeah ... perhaps related to that is the fact that controls in most "PC" style games available for iOS devices just plain suck.
Even this very demo is barely controllable, I wouldn't want to play real games based on their current control system.

I actually quite like this implementation. It's the first time in a game like this that I can walk somewhere and freely look around me in the meantime. I wish more games had that.
 
Is the central processing unit the actual choking point after all or the fact that in a SoC both the CPU and the GPU are struggling for the very same (and already quite low) bandwidth resources?
http://www.eetasia.com/ART_8800603321_499495_NP_1e1373d9.HTM

I'm guessing the A4's increase of the memory bus to 64-bit will help in the case of the latter. Although, if memory bandwidth is a major problem, it's curious that Apple also didn't make the transition to LPDDR2, which would also allow them lower power consumption, which you'd think would be a major plus for them.

http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/view/285001
http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/view/284650

In regards to memory bandwidth, it's interesting that the increase from a 32-bit to 64-bit memory bus doesn't consistently translate into something approaching doubled memory bandwidth. Maybe the A4 also downclocked the memory compared to the iPhone 3GS and is relying on the bus width?

Considering it's got one-fourth of the detail to fill and it's clocked only moderately lower, it'd certainly have the performance headroom for it, especially being a TBDR.
What are the clock speeds of the SGX535 in the iPhone 3GS, iPhone 4, and iPad? If it's 150MHz, 200MHz, and 250MHz respectively then I can see how things are skewed in the 3rd generation devices' favour.

You can download the Epic Unreal Development Kit for free here.

Unfortunately it is Windows-only at this point.
I don't believe the UDK currently supports iPhone development either despite the Epic Citadel documentation linking to it.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/..._Capps_On_Bringing_Hardcore_Flavor_To_iOS.php

They're still waiting for Mark Rein to announce the rollout plan.
 
I am utterly floored - and this is only running on my 3GS, iPhone 4 and iPad will be a step above.

Easily the most impressive handheld graphics i've seen to date. The only comparable thing I can think of was Carmack's Rage iPhone demo.

Is in an entirely different league to anything seen on my PSP or 3DS and even Xbox and Wii.
Hell it looks better than some early 360/PS3 games - for example the city is better looking than the comparable environments in Oblivion on consoles.

This just goes to show you what a difference a good developer can make to the hardware, there is a night and day difference between this and all the other 3D titles on iPhone. And I thought Real Racing and Doom Ressurection was the best I could expect from my phone.

In one sense, it is too be expected though as iPhones have quite a lot of RAM compared to other handheld consoles (or even sixth gen consoles) and they have a lot of flash memory on top of that, which is much faster than the HDDs or disk drives you have on consoles.
 
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I still can't help thinking you're easily impressed. Getting a high angular resolution is really easy, just take a 21" monitor and sit at 3+ meter distance ... you get the same pathetic viewing angle as the iPhone and you get the same great angular resolution for the part of it which is filled. In the end though, most people will prefer a good viewing angle for immersion over angular resolution.
 
I still can't help thinking you're easily impressed. Getting a high angular resolution is really easy, just take a 21" monitor and sit at 3+ meter distance ... you get the same pathetic viewing angle as the iPhone and you get the same great angular resolution for the part of it which is filled. In the end though, most people will prefer a good viewing angle for immersion over angular resolution.
You don't really have that choice for a handheld device, though.

And even though you can get the same angular resolution, sitting at a distance to a monitor simply doesn't feel the same. I tried it, I took a sceenshot of the demo and viewed it on my PC monitor (adjusting color/gamma to match as far as possible), holding the iPhone 4 next to it at various distances. I think Entropy's description as "illusion of infinite detail" puts it very well. I can lean forward to the monitor and see the pixels, but I can't do that with the iPhone 4 (or at least it becomes extremely uncomfortable for my eyes to focus that close). The important thing is that you don't necessarily hold a handheld device at a fixed distance, you can "look closer" and simply perceive more detail.

My experience may be influenced by my short-sightedness, even though my vision is quite good with glasses.


Could a mod please split out this discussion and merge it with the Epic Citadel thread?
 
and they have a lot of flash memory on top of that, which is much faster than the HDDs or disk drives you have on consoles.

I don't know about this... seek time on flash is good but bandwidth is usually way below a hard drive over SATA (that usually also has a bunch of cache). It's not like an SSD, which employs several flash NAND chips in parallel, we're talking about a single one.

The speed of persistent storage probably doesn't make a big difference in how well a game runs once you've gotten past the loading stages. Ultimately the game will have to be < 2GB to be sold on the app store (unless that limit has been modified), so I don't think it'll have content that rivals that of XBox360/PS3 on sheer size.
 
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