Pro-Life Women Shift to Majority?
- Thread starter covermye
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V3 said:
Thats by far the most insightful thing ive ever heard concerning the abortion debate. later,
Vince said:
Glad to see you got my main point instead of being distracted by a side issue I inadvertently brought up. Perhaps the woman would like to make a hermaphrodite instead, and sell access to it at peep shows. Hermaphroditism isn't totally unprecedented. Neither for that matter are two-headed siamese twins. Regardless, what I was trying to say is that the current legal rational for abortion may pave the way for genetic tampering at some point in the future. I regret that my outlandish example distracted from that.
Tumors are alive too ... for sake of arguement just read "WHEN is it a live human being" instead of what he said, nitpicking isnt very productive.
BTW, it would be nice if everyone puts his cards on the table so to say. Where do you think the gray area begins and where it stops? Personally I dont consider zygotes human beings (this is not only relevant to the morning after pill, the normal pill is also seen as an abortion device to be outlawed by some nuts because it can prevent implantation as a secondary contraceptive effect). After implantation the gray area begins, after the second trimester begins abortion becomes hard to justify ... although where the live of the mother is at risk I would not have any problem with her life being given priority.
BTW, it would be nice if everyone puts his cards on the table so to say. Where do you think the gray area begins and where it stops? Personally I dont consider zygotes human beings (this is not only relevant to the morning after pill, the normal pill is also seen as an abortion device to be outlawed by some nuts because it can prevent implantation as a secondary contraceptive effect). After implantation the gray area begins, after the second trimester begins abortion becomes hard to justify ... although where the live of the mother is at risk I would not have any problem with her life being given priority.
Althornin said:
So in other words, Althornin, you are a reasonable person that believes that killing a human being is murder. So am I. You admit to having a very fuzzy and "grey" definition of what differentiates a fetus from a "live human being".
If you value human life as I do, you would want to be pretty sure of your differentiation between "fetus" and "baby". Would you not want to err on the side of caution in this case, and be 100% CERTAIN you were not taking a life that couldn't live outside its mother's womb? 3rd trimester seems like a pretty liberal timeframe if you do indeed want to concern yourself with not accidentally taking a life that could have otherwise lived on its own. What if just one "fetus" at 5 1/2 months of development could have made it? That's legalized murder, by your own definition, correct? My point again: would you not want to be absolutely, 100% certain, that you're not taking a life that could have fit into your definition of a "human being", by being VERY cautious with the allowable abortion "deadline"?
The picture shown a few posts back is of a baby (or fetus if you insist) only 4 month along its development process, and admittedly totally dependant on its mother for survival at that point. I would hardly classify this a "group of cells", inhuman, etc... or compare it to a tumor (they're both "alive" as someone recently stated on this thread.) I, personally, would not be able to "abort" a fetus that is as developed as that with a clear conscience. Would you?
I'm not trying to change anybody's mind here. Obviously that's impossible. Just sharing my opinion that even "pro choice"-ers with definitions of when life begins should allow for HUGE fudge factors in their definition in order to protect the innocent and err on the side of caution, as I stated.
Roger Kohli
Newcomer
Althornin said:
A child couldn't live unaided outside its mothers womb until it was probably 4 or 5 years old!
Its interesting that you said mother and not woman. That's not a criticism, just an observation.
Another possible measure for when a fetus becomes human is the formation of the nervous system. Our brain and senses are one major differentiating factor b/t humans and other organisms. Although, I don't know exactly what point the human nervous system becomes more than that of a bird or dog, and personally I don't agree with that at all. But I thought I'd throw it out there anyway.
Hi there,
As far as I know, abortion clinics are legally required to a) discuss options and b) recommend psychological help, first. At least that's the case in most European countries--it's not like you can just walk in and get an abortion just because you chose to have one. In many countries, you won't get an abortion unless you actually HAVE visited a psychologist (always, of course, complying to the corresponding number of weeks it's still legal--8 weeks seems to be the prefered borderline). I can't believe the USA are more, sorry, backward in that respect. Or do you imply that said psychologists together with the abortion doctors form a secret cabal of fetus killers?
As for tagging the "borderline" number, I really wouldn't know where to begin. I'm neither a biologist nor a physician. In the end, it probably comes down to one's "moral standing" anyway. Drawing a line is exceedingly difficult. Why, for example, completely ban abortion but still allow people to buy and use contraceptives? If the argument is that even a cygote has the potential to flourish into a healthy human being, well, so does "natural" sexual intercourse unless either partner is infertile (be it because it's "that" time of the month or basically). Is using a condom to be considered pre-impregnation abortion?
93,
-Sascha.rb
:|epicstruggle said:
As far as I know, abortion clinics are legally required to a) discuss options and b) recommend psychological help, first. At least that's the case in most European countries--it's not like you can just walk in and get an abortion just because you chose to have one. In many countries, you won't get an abortion unless you actually HAVE visited a psychologist (always, of course, complying to the corresponding number of weeks it's still legal--8 weeks seems to be the prefered borderline). I can't believe the USA are more, sorry, backward in that respect. Or do you imply that said psychologists together with the abortion doctors form a secret cabal of fetus killers?
As for tagging the "borderline" number, I really wouldn't know where to begin. I'm neither a biologist nor a physician. In the end, it probably comes down to one's "moral standing" anyway. Drawing a line is exceedingly difficult. Why, for example, completely ban abortion but still allow people to buy and use contraceptives? If the argument is that even a cygote has the potential to flourish into a healthy human being, well, so does "natural" sexual intercourse unless either partner is infertile (be it because it's "that" time of the month or basically). Is using a condom to be considered pre-impregnation abortion?
93,
-Sascha.rb
nggalai said:
If a person is already at an abortion clinic they have pretty much already well in advance before they engaged in sexual activities that indeed they may use abortion as a form of birth control should they act in an irresponsible manner. Thus their attitudes towards abortion are prearranged to a degree by the simple fact that the state approves and allows for this sort of execution, even though deep down they know full well it was their initial choice to engage in reproductive activity that brought them to the clinic and what they are doing is ghastly.
Can you imagine the silent screams of millions of babies as they are dismembered? It is horrible to think about. Abortionists are generally interested in making money and it doesn't take a lot of imagination to recognize them as paid thugs. In light of how disgusting abortion is it seems there goes more effort into rationalizing the legalization of it. It will require constant psychological support because of its nature, it never will be fully legitimized ethically.
Again I present the following argument that the fact is the unborn baby is a completely separate human with a set of genes that are unlike yet similar to their mothers biology. If this is the case then it can be debated that without a doubt the haven of the womb is a foreign condition and not entirely the womans own body but a shared one where a entirely separate individual conditionally resides. Consequently she does not have the right over that sanctuary completely.
Dr. Ffreeze
Regular
Just had an interesting thought, if a kid in school saw an ultrasound of a fetus in a cow's uterus and asked his teacher what that was. Would the teacher not say a baby cow or maybe just a cow? It is not a bird, nor a rat, nor a house. It is a cow, just very small and in its early stages of development.
I find it interesting when we, as humans, are trying to ponder of the grander things of life, and what is life, we can debate what is human while having no issue saying what is a cow.
Respectfully,
Dr. Ffreeze
Dr. Ffreeze
Regular
MfA,
Do you understand where I am comming from and what I am trying to say?
Dr. Ffreeze
Do you understand where I am comming from and what I am trying to say?
Dr. Ffreeze
First trimester is where I draw the line.. After 2.5-3 months it becomes really to ethically iffy IMO.. Too much brain activity starts forming around that time frame.
While sexual activity is normal in humans and I condone the practise, I do think its irresponsible to decide on abortion only after 3 months like some of the radical prochoice people like to rationalize. Frankly thats a lot of time to make the choice, and its not like going to the grocery store.
The life of the mother of course is a seperate issue.
While sexual activity is normal in humans and I condone the practise, I do think its irresponsible to decide on abortion only after 3 months like some of the radical prochoice people like to rationalize. Frankly thats a lot of time to make the choice, and its not like going to the grocery store.
The life of the mother of course is a seperate issue.