grandmaster
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Moving on a bit, I fully accept that there will be a Blu-ray drive in the next gen systems. However, I don't want mandatory installs in a console. Ever. Would a 6x BD drive be fast enough to make this possible?
Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech
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NathansFortune
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No, 12x is the current maximum, but Pioneer have a lab version of a 16x drive. 16x is 72MB/s which is more than adequate for streaming, even 12x at 54MB/s is good for PS4/Xbox 3. 6x clocks in at 27MB/s. For reference USB 2.0 does 60MB/s in burst mode.
RadioFr33Europe
Newcomer
Did Sony learn a lesson about price yet? The PS3 still sold a decent amount of consoles with the sky high prices.
What do you consider to be a fair entry price? Was the 360 well priced at $399 or should you start at a lower point?
I'd like to see next generation to not have different SKUs with different capabilities. 60GB vs. 120GB HD isn't a big deal.
No hard drive vs. HD is a big deal. So is one model with bc and one model without. If you need a graph to show consumers which console to buy, it's too complex.
RadioFr33Europe
Newcomer
The degree to which it's temporary is just a function of size. I'd like enough flash to completely cache =>2 games (should add only 20$ or so) and the ability to expand with COTS eSATA storage solutions (have a cert like Vista Boost for manufacturers to guarantee acceptable performance for use with the console).
"Normal" users with "normal" usage patterns would get most data from the flash cache (which would be filled with pre-emptively fetched data under control of the developer). Although if they play lots of different games for very short periods of time they would have to swallow a small loading delay each time. "Power" users would add some storage, which would allow the cache to be big enough to store all their games and only need the disc for authentication after they played the game for half an hour or so.
Frankly I don't understand how people enjoy playing games with high speed optical drives throwing out jackhammer level noise in the background. I've just converted all my fans to <800 RPM in my PC and I'm never going back to "normal" PC noise, let alone a console playing off optical.
"Normal" users with "normal" usage patterns would get most data from the flash cache (which would be filled with pre-emptively fetched data under control of the developer). Although if they play lots of different games for very short periods of time they would have to swallow a small loading delay each time. "Power" users would add some storage, which would allow the cache to be big enough to store all their games and only need the disc for authentication after they played the game for half an hour or so.
Frankly I don't understand how people enjoy playing games with high speed optical drives throwing out jackhammer level noise in the background. I've just converted all my fans to <800 RPM in my PC and I'm never going back to "normal" PC noise, let alone a console playing off optical.
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NathansFortune
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Well they are in last place, so one would hope they have learned thing or two.
Agreed on standardisation. One SKU please!
You're leaving out one important fact - unlike average PC, most consoles don't have "high-(rotational)speed" optical drives (at least when playing their primary media), and are hence on the silent side.MfA said:
PS2 runs games between 2-4x speed(any kind of streaming is usually 2x), which makes it damn near silent in latest revisions. Yes it will vibrate an entire table if you put a CD in, but games on those are one in a thousand. Similarly GC and PS3 drives spin at low speeds (again, as long as you stick to primary media).
Xboxes are another story - but in those jet-fan noise often drowns out everything else to begin with
But yea, 12+ speed BluRay drive would probably be very loud, so I'm not looking forward to that.
You're leaving out one important fact - unlike average PC, most consoles don't have "high-(rotational)speed" optical drives (at least when playing their primary media), and are hence on the silent side.
PS2 runs games between 2-4x speed(any kind of streaming is usually 2x), which makes it damn near silent in latest revisions. Yes it will vibrate an entire table if you put a CD in, but games on those are one in a thousand. Similarly GC and PS3 drives spin at low speeds (again, as long as you stick to primary media).
Xboxes are another story - but in those jet-fan noise often drowns out everything else to begin with
But yea, 12+ speed BluRay drive would probably be very loud, so I'm not looking forward to that.
blu ray at 8 speed will make noise also right?
(next generation might use higher than 2 speed)
Have the game install the base game at 8 speed and stream the rest in game off the disc at the silent 2 speed mode would be an option
offtopic: what does you signature mean?
When I test drive my Blu-ray/HD-DVD player for PC at 6x/8x it makes some spinning noise, "swoosh" sound. Soft though.
If you ever visited Microsoft in Seattle, you would know it´s not that far from reality.
NathansFortune
Regular
If the drive is damped then it won't be noisy. The only reason we think fast read speed drives are noisy like the 360 one are because they are cheaply made and put together by hand. Take a listen to the Pioneer 5x BD-ROM drive or the 8x Sony drive. Hell even my 16x DVD drive on my desktop is pretty quiet.
Just got a thought if Nintendo want to go cheap, smal, low power and easy to dev for, how far could they push a single threaded CPU.
I mean we know that a single P4 3Ghz 1MB L2 can run Crysis (and any no console port), without trouble (sure it does have a few slowdowns, but it gets the job done, there are worst in consoles), any core from something like a C2D/X2 (specialy the phenom based) would do much better, plus costumization is possible. Their dual core (must with "lots" of L2) parts are already very very cheap/low power.
Anyone thinks they will push a single core/thread CPU
What kinds of CPU cores could they use
What kinds of performance could we see
Personally I think there is a real change of that, couple it with a "cheap" low end PC card (from 2011-2) and it could defy current consoles (specially if there are things like a cheap integrated sound card and such).
I mean we know that a single P4 3Ghz 1MB L2 can run Crysis (and any no console port), without trouble (sure it does have a few slowdowns, but it gets the job done, there are worst in consoles), any core from something like a C2D/X2 (specialy the phenom based) would do much better, plus costumization is possible. Their dual core (must with "lots" of L2) parts are already very very cheap/low power.
Anyone thinks they will push a single core/thread CPU
What kinds of CPU cores could they use
What kinds of performance could we see
Personally I think there is a real change of that, couple it with a "cheap" low end PC card (from 2011-2) and it could defy current consoles (specially if there are things like a cheap integrated sound card and such).
RadioFr33Europe
Newcomer
I'd hope too, but Sony tends to be the kind of company where if you don't agree with them, you must be doing something wrong.
It was that way with the PS3 price (even now).
It was that way with BC.
It was that way with no decent internal scaling.
The lost of PS2 BC is a huge blow IMO. This broke continuity, people have no incentive to continue with Playstation, they can start fresh. It's like if PC suddenly doesn't have BC.
On hind sight why didn't they just go with Twin Cell processors and an improved PS2 GS with 32-64 MB eDRAM, fixed Mip map and filtering and read back from eDRAM. It won't be as powerful as current PS3 but they will still have BC and developers can leverage PS2 development.
On hind sight why didn't they just go with Twin Cell processors and an improved PS2 GS with 32-64 MB eDRAM, fixed Mip map and filtering and read back from eDRAM. It won't be as powerful as current PS3 but they will still have BC and developers can leverage PS2 development.
Just got a thought if Nintendo want to go cheap, smal, low power and easy to dev for, how far could they push a single threaded CPU.
Anyone thinks they will push a single core/thread CPU
What kinds of CPU cores could they use
What kinds of performance could we see
One way to extend their current model would be to use a variation of the PPC970FX or MP. The PPC970FX took 62mm2 at 90nm lithography, so at 45nm it would probably be some 20mm2 or very roughly the size and price of the current Wii CPU at 90nm. The PPC970MP was a dual core implementation, with not quite twice the die size since the cores shared some processor elements - this could also be an option, particularly at 32nm. The performance of the PPC970 is, clock for clock, similar to Intels C2D, with a collection of perks. If I were Nintendo and wanted to apply this core, I would target some 2GHz for very low power consumption. That number is grabbed out of thin air, the goal being sub 5W CPU power draw at full blast, the 90nm PPC970FX was shipped at up to 2.7GHz. There would likely be some additional work required on the memory bus/controller side to create a suitable console environment.
Going beyond dual core probably wouldn't make any sense, and I'm not certain that two cores would be sufficiently utilized to justify the additional cost and heat. It may well be a better idea to simply increase the clock of the single core as long as we're in a fairly sympathetic part of the clock vs. power function as we should be at these low power levels.
Another option could be to use an adapted PPE, but I'm not sure that this would necessarily be a better move.
Of course, this assumes that they want to extend their current CPU architecture upwards. They may choose to go ARM Cortex9 or some such, break backwards binary compatibility, but gain in other areas.
Xboxes are another story - but in those jet-fan noise often drowns out everything else to begin with
But yea, 12+ speed BluRay drive would probably be very loud, so I'm not looking forward to that.
In the 360's I've used (particularly mine) it's not so much that the fans make a great amount of noise*, it's that they make a greatly irritating noise and do so in chorus.
When the DVD drive spins up to full speed it mostly drowns out the fans, so it's both more irritating and less irritating at the same time. It's a bit like successfully amputating your foot because you have gangrene - it's not all bad, but it's not exactly good.
When the drive spins down to what I believe is 8X (upper layer?) it's a lot more bearable, although those pesky fans become more noticeable. I seriously hope that we don't end up with 12+ BluRay drives next generation ...
A little OT, but having a 12X drive that turns into a disk lathe if the console gets nudged has to make a 360 "lite" a risky proposition hasn't it? Can you imagine a PSTwo with a 12X drive in it? And dear lord the noise ...
[Edit]*except for a Xenon - its fans used to start speeding up after a few seconds just idling in the dashboard.[/Edit]
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