Playstation 5 [PS5] [Release November 12 2020]

[Dictator]

Yeah an ssd is not DRAM at all for access latency, it is why Intel Optane exists and helps bridge that gap better than an Nvme.

I wrote it on ResetERA a long time ago, but the performance chunk that enables Star Citizen's steaming performance is not the full large file continuous bandwidth which is actually not going to be maxing out usually anyway, but the 4K random performance - that is the value which is an order of magnitude faster than an hdd and makes the game's steaming possible (it is also the value which best represent the responsive ess of the tested memory vomponent, and why an ssd makes Windows feel light years better on an ssd than a RAID 0 config with similar large file bandwidth). If you Look at crystalmark numbers, you can see how an Nvme is not too much faster than a sata ssd in 4K random, ven though an Nvme can have 5-7 times higher lsrge file raw bandwidth. But if you Look at crystalmark Mark with Optane, you can see a really comparatively large jump in 4k random performance vs. An nvme.

Some random Intel Optane bench found though Google images:

 

[Arwin]

I think we can probably assume that the latest NVME with PCI-E 4.0 will have similar improvements? Otherwise Cerny wouldn’t have made that distinction.

In short, the SSD innovations in the PS5 are probably a much bigger deal than most people give it credit for right now.

 

[PSman1700]

Seems like i want an optane ssd in the future. Expensive now but maybe prices drop sometime.
Edit: Found a 1tb intel optane H10 series (the newest) for about 180dollars.

Next gen consoles wont be generations apart in ssd tech, neither in other areas.

 

[Deleted member 7537]

Yeah an ssd is not DRAM at all for access latency, it is why Intel Optane exists and helps bridge that gap better than an Nvme.

I wrote it on ResetERA a long time ago, but the performance chunk that enables Star Citizen's steaming performance is not the full large file continuous bandwidth which is actually not going to be maxing out usually anyway, but the 4K random performance - that is the value which is an order of magnitude faster than an hdd and makes the game's steaming possible (it is also the value which best represent the responsive ess of the tested memory vomponent, and why an ssd makes Windows feel light years better on an ssd than a RAID 0 config with similar large file bandwidth). If you Look at crystalmark numbers, you can see how an Nvme is not too much faster than a sata ssd in 4K random, ven though an Nvme can have 5-7 times higher lsrge file raw bandwidth. But if you Look at crystalmark Mark with Optane, you can see a really comparatively large jump in 4k random performance vs. An nvme.

Some random Intel Optane bench found though Google images:

 

[chris1515]

I am curious to know what are the 4k file in AAA games, we have when a trash can in Spiderman is 16 MB and is considered a low size asset. Probably not in geometry or textures, or in audio. Maybe the lowest mip level textures??? Animation??? decals???

 

[psorcerer]

I'm curious if there's a specific scenario or removal of other overheads to get an SSD with 16 us latency.

Controller overhead. File system overhead. Etc.
http://people.csail.mit.edu/ml/pubs/fast2016.pdf

AFAIK DirectX Storage minimal read/write block is 64K.
It will be faster than 4K.

I am curious to know what are the 4k file in AAA games, we have when a trash can in Spiderman is 16 MB and is considered a low size asset. Probably not in geometry or textures, or in audio. Maybe the lowest mip level textures??? Animation??? decals???

I think people just don't optimize it. Because HDDs were slow there was no real difference.
Typical FS block is 4K. Then that's what you get.

In short, the SSD innovations in the PS5 are probably a much bigger deal than most people give it credit for right now.

I've read the patent.
They are much much bigger. But again. That''s not on the agenda.

 

[chris1515]

I think people just don't optimize it. Because HDDs were slow there was no real difference.
Typical FS block is 4K. Then that's what you get.



I've read the patent.
They are much much bigger. But again. That''s not on the agenda.

I have read the three patents, we have the explanation of Mark Cerny. I read tons of optimisation done by AMF or SDF SSD. I think people underestimate a lot what will be done with optimized games.

 

[Dictator]

Amazing work by Gamer's Nexus. Wow.

In case anyone is curious, as to why it is like this in SC to a degree (like it is also in all those games above):

They also had a really nice blog post about it once, that i am (of course) having trouble finding at the moment!

 

[anexanhume]

I'm curious if there's a specific scenario or removal of other overheads to get an SSD with 16 us latency. I've seen typical marketing numbers that start at several times that, and benchmarks that get around 100 us while still being considered good.
99th percentile times for many SSDs often get into the ms range, which isn't as bad as a hard disk but non-trivial if thinking in terms of a frame budget for a high-FPS game.
The cost-sensitive QLC drives seem to be on a race to see how close they can get to HDD-like timings in the worst case while still being able to say they're better than a HDD.

Sony's 6 levels of access priority may have something to do with avoiding conflicts and delays due to garbage collection, but even if the main SSD has better performance consistency, can the PS5 somehow make the third-party M.2 upgrade behave consistently as well?

Cerny stated that the controller has to attempt to arbitrate above the M.2 SSD’s 2 priority levels, and this overhead reduces its peak speed.

 

[PSman1700]

Wow, Optane is insane Imagine when games get optimized for ssd's, and a next gen optane solution.... Its indeed not just about raw high speeds, there are certainly more important things going on. A 1TB h10 optane is on listings here for about 180 dollars, not so bad.
Always wondered why bf4 takes so long to load, always been annoyed by that one. Its the initial map load thats the problem.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Optane costs a fortune. It's designed for high performance, expensive computing. It won't be a standard for gaming PCs any time soon. Consoles can provide these high-performance options at far lower prices because of their unique hardware position and business model.

 

[anexanhume]

Optane costs a fortune. It's designed for high performance, expensive computing. It won't be a standard for gaming PCs any time soon. Consoles can provide these high-performance options at far lower prices because of their unique hardware position and business model.

Indeed. We should be happy we’re getting the solutions we are for $400-500 boxes. Next gen - MRAM!

 

[iroboto]

Optane costs a fortune. It's designed for high performance, expensive computing. It won't be a standard for gaming PCs any time soon. Consoles can provide these high-performance options at far lower prices because of their unique hardware position and business model.

$4900 CAD MSRP for 1.5TB

most consumer based models are between 100-200 for 16-32GB

 

[PSman1700]

Optane costs a fortune. It's designed for high performance, expensive computing. It won't be a standard for gaming PCs any time soon. Consoles can provide these high-performance options at far lower prices because of their unique hardware position and business model.

Yeah, and that's the thing, PC gaming is expensive if you want to keep up, its the big disadvantage of it, in special when consoles launch.

Indeed. We should be happy we’re getting the solutions we are for $400-500 boxes. Next gen - MRAM!

Can't agree more, very good hardware for the price. Even if the CPU/GPU etc are closer to mid range then high, the storage solution is on the high-end spectrum, in special for the PS5's.

$4900 CAD MSRP for 1.5TB

most consumer based models are between 100-200 for 16-32GB

Hm, canadian prices are high(er)? The cheapest here, thats available, is around 280 dollars for a 1TB H10 Optane ssd, that should be the newest variant. It's way to expensive for wide-spread adoption, but it's not that bad. Prices could come down, and maybe a smaller drive, say 800gb or even 500gb would be able to be cheaper.

https://www.prisjakt.nu/produkt.php?p=5147626

32GB wouldn't suffice i think, and definitely not worth the price.

 

[Arwin]

I presume depending on what you want to achieve putting the OS on that and using something else for the rest could still be nice. Or only use it for what really benefits, like a github repo [emoji16]

 

[PSman1700]

Yea, but i think if you want to closer match the consoles, you'd want or even need more then 32GB (they talked about 100GB reservation?). A standard Nvme could match in speeds, but for latency an optane is doing something closer to what the PS5 is seeming to aim for (closer to DRAM). I can see somewhere why Sony put so much effort towards the SSD/IO, it's the one thing we haven't really seen any 'jumps' in for a long time, storage is the component we can improve the most upon. With that not said XSX is lacking in that department, dont think there will be that much of a difference between them even in the SSD in practice/games, just like the other HW differences.

Oh and audio then, we really haven't seen much improvements there either, CPU are rather huge jumps too. Moore's law and all, we still see a true generational jump. And ofc the PC is going to benefit too. Great times ahead for gaming.

 

[iroboto]

Yeah, and that's the thing, PC gaming is expensive if you want to keep up, its the big disadvantage of it, in special when consoles launch.



Can't agree more, very good hardware for the price. Even if the CPU/GPU etc are closer to mid range then high, the storage solution is on the high-end spectrum, in special for the PS5's.



Hm, canadian prices are high(er)? The cheapest here, thats available, is around 280 dollars for a 1TB H10 Optane ssd, that should be the newest variant. It's way to expensive for wide-spread adoption, but it's not that bad. Prices could come down, and maybe a smaller drive, say 800gb or even 500gb would be able to be cheaper.

https://www.prisjakt.nu/produkt.php?p=5147626

32GB wouldn't suffice i think, and definitely not worth the price.

Hmm. Maybe I’m looking at server stuff

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Hm, canadian prices are high(er)? The cheapest here, thats available, is around 280 dollars for a 1TB H10 Optane ssd, that should be the newest variant.

Hmm. Maybe I’m looking at server stuff

It's a relatively new product that's 32GBs Optane XPoint and 1 TB NAND storage



Xpoint is stupidly expensive, HPC stuff. It's hundreds of dollars for 32/64 GB quantities. It should be pretty obvious that something called "1TB Optane" at $280 isn't going to be comparable to Optane SSDs at over a grand for <1TB capacity and one should look into the specifics rather than just the brand name.

 

[arhra]

For example a small 100KB script that determines enemy behavior, runs on the CPU and fits a small portion of the L3. Does it ever need to go through the main system RAM?

Yes, it needs to go through the main system RAM. Because its a cache, not a local store. A cache, by definition cannot contain anything not backed by an address in main memory.

And if Sony had made customisations allowing the use of L3 as an SPU-style local store, they definitely wouldn't have been quiet about it.

 

[mrcorbo]

I presume depending on what you want to achieve putting the OS on that and using something else for the rest could still be nice. Or only use it for what really benefits, like a github repo [emoji16]

It's most often used as a storage accelerator. You pair it with a higher capacity device and it's used as cache.