Playstation 5 [PS5] [Release November 12 2020]

[3dilettante]

I think RDNA might just be binary compatible with GCN, it has a wave64 mode, and if you look at the ISA most instructions look the same.

As a somewhat late follow-up, RDNA moved a good chunk of the vector ISA back in-line with pre-Vega encodings, although I think there are small differences all around that would break binary compatibility.
RDNA dropped a number of instructions in the branch and control category, such as forms of fork and join and a modes like VSKIP. The former might have been less commonly used, but I wouldn't know if there would be a guarantee that it was zero in all PS4 software. Skip modes, or a number of other instruction-buffer operations that were culled seem like they would be more likely to be found.
There's likely a few other things like slight changes to offsets in flat addressing mode and some forms of shifts or atomics that have been dropped over the years that I haven't reviewed RDNA to see if they've all made it back since Sea Islands.
Wave64 in concept might be a path towards backwards compatibility, but if client RDNA is an example, it would be a likely problem for fixed binaries. Wave64 has failure cases that GCN would shrug off, such as it breaks if all lanes are predicated off.
Navi 10 has a number of related hardware bugs seemingly related to having all or the upper/lower half of a wave64 wave being masked off.

Presumably, RDNA2 as a base for the next gen implies bug-fixing given some notable gaps with Navi 10, and then potential tweaks to bring back architectural behavior that have been dropped after each generation since CI.

edit: Whatever custom tweaks the PS4 and Pro introduced to the ISA would also need consideration. The Pro's rapid-packed math instructions would have been inserted into a different ISA than the Vega-level ones.

 

[AbsoluteBeginner]

On topic of ease of development stuff, I think its given that PS5 will be absolute dream for programmers as its pretty straightforward. You get one console, you get one environment and one set of tools, all optimized for it. In MS case you get tools which require you to develop for multiple consoles AND multiple environments (+ cloud).

Its more complex, its more time consuming and it requires more "jiggling". BUT, I sense like it was case with MS BC plan back in 2013 that some rewards will be reaped this way. If you think about it, Xbox is certified multiplatform machine from now to forever. You know you will get top level hardware, but more then that, you can be 100% sure that BC for all titles you had will not be better on any other consoles.

This is reward for additional complexity they introduced to developers. For Sony's sake, I hope they are looking into this because in 5 years time console business might not be few great exclusives per year and then waiting for new generation every 6-7 years, but continuous support without a hassle for end user.

 

[cheapchips]

On topic of ease of development stuff, I think its given that PS5 will be absolute dream for programmers as its pretty straightforward. You get one console, you get one environment and one set of tools, all optimized for it. In MS case you get tools which require you to develop for multiple consoles AND multiple environments (+ cloud)

It sounds from Rich's EGX natter that the PS5 Dev kit is just the PS4 environment with the new stuff added. Very familiar so super straight forward.

 

[JPT]

I am really curious if I get a PS5 at launch at what I am getting, the DE or standard, if I got the choice I would go DE.
Anyway, wayback in April there was this big online store here in Norway that started to take pre-orders, they set the price at 9999nkr which turns into about $999 ish.
With the promise they would set the correct price when they got it.
This online store (komplett.no) is a serious actor in the market, but I do wonder about their allocation. Anyway yesterday they updated the info on my order, now it says the device is expected to arrive in the warehouse on the 17th of November.
Fingers crossed that I will get it for launch.

 

[jlippo]

That’s more the history of a specific type of game and of the history of 3D graphics on the console, but I get your point.

But to be honest God of War on PS3 was more impressive than Demon Souls gameplay here om PS5. Ditto for Uncharted and several other stuff.

It was interesting to hear the DF interview with the Dirt 5 developer by the way, talking about using one of the cores to distribute work to the rest, reminded me a lot of the Cell ppe and later spe based processor job scheduling back then.

Such job systems are apparently quite common now a days.

 

[HBRU]

As a somewhat late follow-up, RDNA moved a good chunk of the vector ISA back in-line with pre-Vega encodings......

....edit: Whatever custom tweaks the PS4 and Pro introduced to the ISA would also need consideration. The Pro's rapid-packed math instructions would have been inserted into a different ISA than the Vega-level ones.

This is concerning relating to ps4-pro easy BC... I thought since months that ps5 is simple in BC with ps4 and not simple (need a lot of work) with ps4-pro... Well it's probably easier to port one-x versions... [emoji15] ... All this IMHO.

 

[HBRU]

On topic of ease of development stuff, I think its given that PS5 will be absolute dream for programmers as its pretty straightforward. You get one console, you get one environment and one set of tools, all optimized for it. In MS case you get tools which require you to develop for multiple consoles AND multiple environments (+ cloud).

Its more complex, its more time consuming and it requires more "jiggling". BUT, I sense like it was case with MS BC plan back in 2013 that some rewards will be reaped this way. If you think about it, Xbox is certified multiplatform machine from now to forever. You know you will get top level hardware, but more then that, you can be 100% sure that BC for all titles you had will not be better on any other consoles.

This is reward for additional complexity they introduced to developers. For Sony's sake, I hope they are looking into this because in 5 years time console business might not be few great exclusives per year and then waiting for new generation every 6-7 years, but continuous support without a hassle for end user.

Holy words.

 

[JPT]

Such job systems are apparently quite common now a days.

More interested in the job system they are using, since they moved away from 1 core deciding what jobs goes to which cores, to something else.
That something else sounded like it was able to use all cores without the one "master" core that decides everything.

 

[Barrabas]

I am really curious if I get a PS5 at launch at what I am getting, the DE or standard, if I got the choice I would go DE.
Anyway, wayback in April there was this big online store here in Norway that started to take pre-orders, they set the price at 9999nkr which turns into about $999 ish.
With the promise they would set the correct price when they got it.
This online store (komplett.no) is a serious actor in the market, but I do wonder about their allocation. Anyway yesterday they updated the info on my order, now it says the device is expected to arrive in the warehouse on the 17th of November.
Fingers crossed that I will get it for launch.

I guess you know, but be aware that Komplett only guarantees that you will get a PS5, not necessary on release. A colleague of mine did the same and contacted them only to get this answer. When I ordered at Elkjøp my order included guaranteed stock November 18th with a 1-4 days shipment to me. There is a rumored batch two coming this week so pay attention on their site the days ahead if you are interested (Probably before 10am each day).

 

[JPT]

I guess you know, but be aware that Komplett only guarantees that you will get a PS5, not necessary on release. A colleague of mine did the same and contacted them only to get this answer. When I ordered at Elkjøp my order included guaranteed stock November 18th with a 1-4 days shipment to me. There is a rumored batch two coming this week so pay attention on their site the days ahead if you are interested (Probably before 10am each day).

I know, i should be decently at the head of the list, since I ordered back in April, but we will see

 

[3dilettante]

This is concerning relating to ps4-pro easy BC... I thought since months that ps5 is simple in BC with ps4 and not simple (need a lot of work) with ps4-pro... Well it's probably easier to port one-x versions... [emoji15] ... All this IMHO.

Cerny's presentation indicated that the hardware was customized to provide support. If the hardware was customized to provide the necessary support, then how much engineering or silicon was expended in the APU doesn't matter to the software. My post was more concerned about elaborating on why unmodified RDNA would not fully align with binaries targeting the PS4 and Pro, but Sony's already on record stating whatever the PS5 has is not unmodified.

 

[JPT]

I know, i should be decently at the head of the list, since I ordered back in April, but we will see

Just to followup, another friend ordered from the same place about 8 days later. His is expected to arrive date is 9th of may 2021......
So assuming it looks like i am in the queue to get it before 2021 at least. If I have it in time for the xmas holidays I will be happy.

 

[jlippo]

Cerny's presentation indicated that the hardware was customized to provide support. If the hardware was customized to provide the necessary support, then how much engineering or silicon was expended in the APU doesn't matter to the software. My post was more concerned about elaborating on why unmodified RDNA would not fully align with binaries targeting the PS4 and Pro, but Sony's already on record stating whatever the PS5 has is not unmodified.

Ps4Pro GPU also had few unique features and instructions which may not be part of RDNA, like the rendering of id-buffer in same pass and some MSAA sample copy and gradient instructions etc. (Would be awesome if those would be part of all RDNA though.)

 

[HBRU]

Ps4Pro GPU also had few unique features and instructions which may not be part of RDNA, like the rendering of id-buffer in same pass and some MSAA sample copy and gradient instructions etc. (Would be awesome if those would be part of all RDNA though.)

A question. The recent porting of Horizon Zero Dawn to PC was ps4 or ps4-pro based ?

 

[jlippo]

A question. The recent porting of Horizon Zero Dawn to PC was ps4 or ps4-pro based ?

I have not heard of anything on how the port was done. (I haven't read any articles on it.)
Pretty sure most of the code is identical with few alternative paths to get their checkerboard solution working on pro etc.

If you are interested on porting from Ps4 to PC, a new series of blog posts on porting Detroit has just begun.
Porting Detroit: Become Human from Playstation 4 to PC

 

[BoardBonobo]

A question. The recent porting of Horizon Zero Dawn to PC was ps4 or ps4-pro based ?

Wouldn't make any difference. They're both the same code bases, just alternate rendering paths for adding in the few extra functions that the Pro brought to the table.

 

[JPT]

Just to followup, another friend ordered from the same place about 8 days later. His is expected to arrive date is 9th of may 2021......
So assuming it looks like i am in the queue to get it before 2021 at least. If I have it in time for the xmas holidays I will be happy.

I guess everybody is as excited as I am about wether I will get it before Christmas or not, I want to share an other update with you.
Just got an email, that I am one of the lucky few what will most probably get my PS5 in November/December this year. The date still says they expect it to arrive in stock on the 17th of November.

So yay me

ps I still have no idea which version they will give me, nor what I am supposed to pay. Seems my Brexit joke at DSoup's expense came back to bite me

 

[HBRU]

So if in ps5 the ps4-pro path is nota available it goes trough vanilla ps4 code sections... ?!?

 

[Lalaland]

So if in ps5 the ps4-pro path is nota available it goes trough vanilla ps4 code sections... ?!?

No these are entirely separate issues. The PS5 compatibility mode is meant to support the highest available mode for the game AFAIK so if a title has Pro enhancements the PS5 runs it like that. The PC port is irrelevant to this discussion.

Ok misunderstood your post, yes the PS5 does not leverage any additional enhancements made for a PC release. So if a notional game has a PS4 release and a later PC release but no PS4 Pro release, the PS5 will run the title in PS4 mode without any enhancements the PC release may offer.

Not sure why anyone would expect they would given that a PC release for any title given the differences in API and having never been tested or certed for Playstation platforms but to reconfirm it will not.

 

[BoardBonobo]

Amazon and Currys PC World (UK) are both reporting they will have PS5 back in stock tomorrow for pre-order.