PlayStation 4 (codename Orbis) technical hardware investigation (news and rumours)

[Shifty Geezer]

Go Googling BSD. I've found all sorts of bits of info from 512 MB recommended specs for PC-BSD, down to 160 MBs someone trying to get a small BSD, to 4-5 MBs just for the kernel. We have a whole thread around these parts discussing OS RAM usage, with lots of ideas. 1GB seems a lot considering by tablet uses 1GB and maintains apps constantly in RAM instead of loading them, and I don't expect PS4 to have a resident graphics app, email client, word processor, yadayada, so I'd consider 1GB excessive, but in the context of 8 GBs, it's not too much (7 GBs for games is still a lot) and leaves growing room. Considering how much web pages can consume these days, and that's surely only get worse, 1 GB leaves plenty of breathing space for a web client displayed PIP on the game screen playing a video walkthrough and everything else. So I won't be surprised if PS4 has 1GB reserved.

 

[onQ]

It seem like people are more shocked by the PS4 using 1GB for the OS than they was about the Wii U using 1GB for the OS, why is that?

 

[BRiT]

It seem like people are more shocked by the PS4 using 1GB for the OS than they was about the Wii U using 1GB for the OS, why is that?

Careful now, this is not a Wii-U thread nor is it a versus thread.

 

[onQ]

Careful now, this is not a Wii-U thread nor is it a versus thread.

Oh no I wasn't saying it like that, I was just wondering why even after we already have a next gen console out with 1GB for it's OS why people would still see 1GB as too much for another.

 

[ERP]

considering by tablet uses 1GB and maintains apps constantly in RAM instead of loading them, and I don't expect PS4 to have a resident graphics app, email client, word processor, yadayada,

The way tablets work or at least the apple ones is to keep as many apps in memory as possible then kick out the oldest giving it a chance to save some state, so it can load back to the same state.

Why would next gen consoles not do the same?
I don't think it's desirable to load apps on request, the HD is slower than the flash in a tablet, and the apps likely larger, so you'd likely want to keep anything frequently used loaded.

I think we have to stop thinking of consoles as just gaming devices.

You have the obvious browser, mail, twitter, facebook, whatever group chat management is being used etc etc etc.

There is a secondary issue, if Sony reserves a lot less that MS, and MS has some compelling memory greedy feature, they can't grab more memory later to reach parity. Though I have no idea what that might be.

I should be clear here I have no idea what the plans for the reserved memory are above and beyond some basics.

 

[bagofsuck]

that 1 GB rumor for the OS is made by some website well known for making up rumors..

 

[BRiT]

That's because the SDFers were saying the PS4 was to-the-metal and had nothing reserved -- no memory, no cpu cores, and no gpu cores reserved. So now when they find out it can't work miracles, they're faith is shaken.

 

[onQ]

That's because the SDFers were saying the PS4 was to-the-metal and had nothing reserved -- no memory, no cpu cores, and no gpu cores reserved. So now when they find out it can't work miracles, they're faith is shaken.

People said that? how would that even be possible?

 

[rockaman]

I don't remember anyone saying that... From anywhere, and all I do is browse gaming stuff for web time lol. Even a SDF should know PS3 had RAM reserved for OS.

I think 1 GB is a good target for OS needs. I also like the idea of saving state for oldest apps in HDD also.

I feel like Cerny really emphasised his appreciation for the accessibility of tablet and phone devices. So from this perspective it seems like he wants to design the OS in the same way and also to use focused function and light apps for anything and everything as we have on iOS or Android.

Except I expect they won't be allowing anyone and everyone to design apps, but to have basic functions like email, browser, social networks, video services, etc. Just more easy to jump between all of these and games hopefully.

I really hope they step up the browser function though, PS3s was awful from my experience, and I want Vitas to improve even more, and I wonder if the touchpad could substitute for some keyboard functions, volume control, and other things in browsers and other apps.

 

[Fafalada]

In fact, it may be mandated by MS to improve the user experience if games can't run directly off disc as the rumors suggest

IMO the only chance for "progressive installs" happening at all is if it's mandated by respective hw makers with some strict requirements(in terms of timing&size requirements for minimal install before a game is playable).
It's just not something that you can do transparently, or even shoehorn on short-notice without forethought in how game was laid out in the first place.

The above goes double for installs from network-sources, but the same principle applies to disks really.
But yea the easiest way to enforce this would be to not allow games to be playable from disc directly.

 

[rockaman]

Ok nevermind he Vita browser is pretty damn good... just Googled to here with it and fresh logged in almost as fast as my phone... this bodes well for PS4

Maybe there have been improvements in even 2.10... very good...

 

[patsu]

It seem like people are more shocked by the PS4 using 1GB for the OS than they was about the Wii U using 1GB for the OS, why is that?

Hm ? Are people shocked ? I remember the rumor mentioned 512MB for OS, when people thought PS4 has 4GB GDDR5 RAM. There are various reasonable guesses for reserving 1GB RAM for system use.

I would think people are more curious than shocked. ^_^

Ok nevermind he Vita browser is pretty damn good... just Googled to here with it and fresh logged in almost as fast as my phone... this bodes well for PS4

Maybe there have been improvements in even 2.10... very good...

Modern cellphone may go as high as 300+. 284 is the highest HTML5 compatibility for game consoles so far. I expect PS4 to exceed Vita.

Sony also contribute to WebGL on cellphones. I hope to see some new experiments in that area for game consoles.

EDIT:

that 1 GB rumor for the OS is made by some website well known for making up rumors..

It's probably more important to know what can and cannot be done in the new OS. The system memory usage will tell us which technical approach they take.
I suspect it may not make a huge difference to the end user at 30,000 feet level. The devil is in the details.

 

[SedentaryJourney]

There is a secondary issue, if Sony reserves a lot less that MS, and MS has some compelling memory greedy feature, they can't grab more memory later to reach parity. Though I have no idea what that might be.

I should be clear here I have no idea what the plans for the reserved memory are above and beyond some basics.

Must be hard to find the right figure since essentially the safest bet is to initially match your competitor's memory reservation. I wonder if MS and Sony are even aware of what the other is doing in this regard.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The way tablets work or at least the apple ones is to keep as many apps in memory as possible then kick out the oldest giving it a chance to save some state, so it can load back to the same state.

Why would next gen consoles not do the same?

Although I agree, the issue comes in trying to 'cost' the RAM usage of apps on a home console. There's just less going to be going on. You're not going to have a calculator, a night-sky browser, a comic photo editor, and all the other apps that you'd have on a tablet concurrent on a PS4, IMO. People already have pads and phones for that stuff. PS4 will need communications infrastructure for sure (web, chat, videochat), and a music player for custom soundtracks, and that sort of thing, but that stuff can be multitasked on a 256 MB phone. I think that's the comparison Joe Gamer will make when reading stuff on forums, but I doubt an extra 512 MBs reserved is going to make any noticeable difference to games so I don't see a problem myself. Would be nice to have a breakdown of RAM utilisation though, just for interest.

 

[dagamer]

We should be clear, it's not that either the PS4 or Wii U use 1GB for the OS, but have 1GB of RAM reserved which games can't touch.

 

[DJ12]

That's because the SDFers were saying the PS4 was to-the-metal and had nothing reserved -- no memory, no cpu cores, and no gpu cores reserved. So now when they find out it can't work miracles, they're faith is shaken.

You only think that because MDFers dont read and put words in the SDFers mouths.

People have know there is memory reserved since the df article. As it stands no cores are reserved which is believable with the dedicated ACEs giving priority to the os.

This forum has turned into a fanboy warzone and it's not hard to see why....

 

[Lalaland]

The smell of burning fanboi rage is getting dangerously strong here.

The RAM amounts seem acceptable to me but has there been any clarity on reserved cores for MS and Sony. I find it hard to believe developers would like O/S code randomly pre-empting their cpu jobs so I'd imagine it's at least 1 x86 core. Any good sources on this point for Orbis?

 

[Gipsel]

I find it hard to believe developers would like O/S code randomly pre-empting their cpu jobs so I'd imagine it's at least 1 x86 core. Any good sources on this point for Orbis?

You don't have to reserve a core for that. Depending on what the OS actually does, it probably needs a lot less than a full core during gameplay. It would make more sense to just schedule the OS preferrably on one or better two cores without reserving it completely to the OS. For instance that could mean that the game gets no interruption (besides the usual preemption when a time slice expires) on 6 cores and is still able to use the remaining ones for lower priority tasks which tolerate a few ms delay in case the OS needs to do something.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

A whole reserved core seems good to me, as that's a reliable position for games and OS for delivering a predictable, smooth experience. PS3 had a reserved core, and there are 8 of them in Orbis. I've been saying elsewhere, with GPU handling heavy compute functions, and dedicated video -coding hardware, and an audio DSP, just how much work is there really for the CPU to do? So allocating a stable amount for OS functions in a predictable multitasking OS is acceptable IMO. Although in this age of unstable framerates, maybe juddery interfaces and game stutters are fine by consumers?

 

[babcat]

Is that new article out about the ps4 hardware?