PlayStation 3 to feature Blu-Ray disc - Official!
- Thread starter j^aws
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We're not allowed access... But I mean c'mon what would be point of putting a recorder on the roof? :? Not a very convenient location when you gotta change discs...
No, it's an enthusiast targeted edition... Fundamentally no different from extended edition DVDs that are sold after the initial release, just focussing on a different aspect to emphasize (audio and video mastering vs. packing extras. And believe me, a decent LCD or Plasma HD set will make the quality of DVD encodings quite noticeable).
Whereas S-VHS is incompatible with VHS...
At what bitrate does a DVD become a "stop gap solution"?
At 5.2 Mbps? At 6 Mbps?
Superbit DVD's aren't locked to one bitrate, it uses VBR just as non Superbit DVDs, only they have been encoded at higher average bitrate.
By your "logic", the Superbit DVD is a "part-time stopgap solution" that only fragments the market when the bitrate exceeds the average br of a "normal" dvd.
What about the sound? Are all DTS dvds "stop gap solution" that fragment the market? If anything, DTS could be classified as "stop gap" solution if we follow your "logic".
...and Superbit DVD's being over 10 Mbps... I don't think so.
DVD is limited to 10 Mbps, if I recall correct.
SB is not a "hack" as it doesn't use anything that isn't reradily available in DVD format. It's only using the available space and technology for quality instead of quantity.
Edit: Oh, now I see why PC-Engine is calling Superbit a market fragmentator...SB is a Colubia Tristar trademark... and CS is part of you know what company
At 5.2 Mbps? At 6 Mbps?
Superbit DVD's aren't locked to one bitrate, it uses VBR just as non Superbit DVDs, only they have been encoded at higher average bitrate.
By your "logic", the Superbit DVD is a "part-time stopgap solution" that only fragments the market when the bitrate exceeds the average br of a "normal" dvd.
What about the sound? Are all DTS dvds "stop gap solution" that fragment the market? If anything, DTS could be classified as "stop gap" solution if we follow your "logic".
...and Superbit DVD's being over 10 Mbps... I don't think so.
DVD is limited to 10 Mbps, if I recall correct.
SB is not a "hack" as it doesn't use anything that isn't reradily available in DVD format. It's only using the available space and technology for quality instead of quantity.
Edit: Oh, now I see why PC-Engine is calling Superbit a market fragmentator...SB is a Colubia Tristar trademark... and CS is part of you know what company
rabidrabbit said:At what bitrate does a DVD become a "stop gap solution"?
At 5.2 Mbps? At 6 Mbps?
Superbit DVD's aren't locked to one bitrate, it uses VBR just as non Superbit DVDs, only they have been encoded at higher average bitrate.
By your "logic", the Superbit DVD is a "part-time stopgap solution" that only fragments the market when the bitrate exceeds the average br of a "normal" dvd.
What about the sound? Are all DTS dvds "stop gap solution" that fragment the market? If anything, DTS could be classified as "stop gap" solution if we follow your "logic".
...and Superbit DVD's being over 10 Mbps... I don't think so.
DVD is limited to 10 Mbps, if I recall correct.
SB is not a "hack" as it doesn't use anything that isn't reradily available in DVD format. It's only using the available space and technology for quality instead of quantity.
Edit: Oh, now I see why PC-Engine is calling Superbit a market fragmentator...SB is a Colubia Tristar trademark... and CS is part of you know what company
And it's no surprise why you're defending it.
It's a hack you don't have to agree with it and you don't need a degree to understand that either.
Superbit is to DVD what VHS-HQ is to VHS a stop gap hack.
I'll say to you the same thing I said previously.... except that I'd get a warning from the moderator if I typed it here, so I'll leave it to your imagination.
It is indeed hard to understand why in your opinion it is a "hack" as it doesn't in any way do what is commonly understand as a hack.
If it is a "hack" only in your head, then I do not have a need to understand it either.
You're just hopeless...
It is indeed hard to understand why in your opinion it is a "hack" as it doesn't in any way do what is commonly understand as a hack.
If it is a "hack" only in your head, then I do not have a need to understand it either.
You're just hopeless...
Holy crap, PC. Does a SINGLE piece of technology on any level connected with Sony exist without you having to take offense at it?
How is Superbit "hack" and fragments the industry while every other re-release of movies somewhere in the environment is just what we would expect from the marketplace? What about when publishers toss more content on and create a special edition? Clean up the source material more for a re-issue? Stitch other scenes in for directors cuts? Alter an original DVD somewhat to bundle with others in a new product or offer primarily for new marketing? Seems to me the market would be hideously fragmented already, by your standards. Damn you, market!
Archie is spot on--Superbit is a niche product aimed at people who like their movies--and just the movies--looking and sounding as good as possible and are willing to shell out again for it (or go entirely in that direction, which brings whatever market there is wholly their direction--for the moment [if it becomes popular enough it would of course be replicated everywhere else] ). It is not trying to "solve" anything--it is simply trying to fish for new or different consumers.
Personally I think it will have small effect overall and absolutely none on me (since I MUCH prefer interesting content to movie quality--the more commentary tracks the better! ). I also boggle a bit seeing things like Adaptation, Hook, Johnny Mnemonic, and other movies that would take little advantage of better video and audio even if it DOES deliver well. But hey, it's their money and their consumers to chase.
But it will cause absolutely NO ripples that haven't been made before countless times. You're just trying to paint your own devil to shoot down.
Should we give a crap? I dunno. Look around. There are plenty of people talking about them. Amazingly, all us consumers can judge what features we like or dislike on our own, and buy accordingly. As we have done through time. Even--gosharooney--RIGHT NOW!
How is Superbit "hack" and fragments the industry while every other re-release of movies somewhere in the environment is just what we would expect from the marketplace? What about when publishers toss more content on and create a special edition? Clean up the source material more for a re-issue? Stitch other scenes in for directors cuts? Alter an original DVD somewhat to bundle with others in a new product or offer primarily for new marketing? Seems to me the market would be hideously fragmented already, by your standards. Damn you, market!
Archie is spot on--Superbit is a niche product aimed at people who like their movies--and just the movies--looking and sounding as good as possible and are willing to shell out again for it (or go entirely in that direction, which brings whatever market there is wholly their direction--for the moment [if it becomes popular enough it would of course be replicated everywhere else] ). It is not trying to "solve" anything--it is simply trying to fish for new or different consumers.
Personally I think it will have small effect overall and absolutely none on me (since I MUCH prefer interesting content to movie quality--the more commentary tracks the better!
). I also boggle a bit seeing things like Adaptation, Hook, Johnny Mnemonic, and other movies that would take little advantage of better video and audio even if it DOES deliver well. But hey, it's their money and their consumers to chase. But it will cause absolutely NO ripples that haven't been made before countless times. You're just trying to paint your own devil to shoot down.
...which goes to show just where you want to prop it up. The point is that Superbit has no additional affects or requirements of people--it just offers (supposedly) the maximum quality they can get from the equipment they have now.PC-Engine said:
Should we give a crap? I dunno. Look around. There are plenty of people talking about them. Amazingly, all us consumers can judge what features we like or dislike on our own, and buy accordingly. As we have done through time. Even--gosharooney--RIGHT NOW!
rabidrabbit said:I'll say to you the same thing I said previously.... except that I'd get a warning from the moderator if I typed it here, so I'll leave it to your imagination.
It is indeed hard to understand why in your opinion it is a "hack" as it doesn't in any way do what is commonly understand as a hack.
If it is a "hack" only in your head, then I do not have a need to understand it either.
You're just hopeless...
Why resort to name calling everytime you don't agree with something?
Superbit is a hack just like VHS-HQ both offering minor improvements without the need for a totally new mechansim. If you can't understand that then maybe you're the hopeless one.
It requires the stripping out of bonus material from the DVD so it's a hack. None of the other examples you equate to SB does this. When you create a hack format like Superbit it's a totally different ballgame from Special Editions, Director's Cut, Extended Editions, Collectors Editions, etc. because you don't get the extras where as in the different editons you do.
I didn't call names :?
You're just giving your own meanings to words like "hack", you're twisting the meaning of it to fit your "arguments".
Read my previous post again: I asked at which point the 1-10Mbps bitrate becomes a "hack" in your opinion? Answer this and I'll agree you are right.
What makes for example Lord of The Rings 4 disc special editions versus regular 2 disc edition different from Superbit?
LOTR SE has high bitrate DTS sound, regular does not.
LOTR SE has higher bitrate for picture and sound than regular.
LOTR SE is not Superbit, because it is a New Line Cinema production.
LOTR SE doesn't have some of the extras that the regular edition has, and vice versa.
SB doesn't require anything from DVD hardware that wouldn't be readily and by standard available in every player on market
Hey! you were previously comparing SB to S-VHS... now you compare to VHS-HQ :?
Do you even know what you are talking about?
Even then, VHS-HQ is not software related, it is just a hardware "hack" if you like to call it that. What has it got to do with Superbit DVD and lower bitrate DVD?
It's just like saying Philips' PixelPlus technology in TV's is a "market fragmenting hack"... or Sony's DCR... or Panasonic's Acuity... Pioneer's Pure Vision..... or just about any performance enhancing feature found on any device.
In your ideal world there would be just one company that manufactures everything, so there would be no competing technologies or ways to do things, that are beneficial to consumer.
You are a communist, are you? (now, that is not name calling, just a question)
You're just giving your own meanings to words like "hack", you're twisting the meaning of it to fit your "arguments".
Read my previous post again: I asked at which point the 1-10Mbps bitrate becomes a "hack" in your opinion? Answer this and I'll agree you are right.
What makes for example Lord of The Rings 4 disc special editions versus regular 2 disc edition different from Superbit?
LOTR SE has high bitrate DTS sound, regular does not.
LOTR SE has higher bitrate for picture and sound than regular.
LOTR SE is not Superbit, because it is a New Line Cinema production.
LOTR SE doesn't have some of the extras that the regular edition has, and vice versa.
SB doesn't require anything from DVD hardware that wouldn't be readily and by standard available in every player on market
Hey! you were previously comparing SB to S-VHS... now you compare to VHS-HQ :?
Do you even know what you are talking about?
Even then, VHS-HQ is not software related, it is just a hardware "hack" if you like to call it that. What has it got to do with Superbit DVD and lower bitrate DVD?
It's just like saying Philips' PixelPlus technology in TV's is a "market fragmenting hack"... or Sony's DCR... or Panasonic's Acuity... Pioneer's Pure Vision..... or just about any performance enhancing feature found on any device.
In your ideal world there would be just one company that manufactures everything, so there would be no competing technologies or ways to do things, that are beneficial to consumer.
You are a communist, are you? (now, that is not name calling, just a question)
Other formats exclude options that COULD be in there to include those extras; they are swapping one sort of value for another. Visual quality must be reduced from what is possible to fit in desired extras; audio quality is limited and lower so as to fit extra content, be it audio and video. They're hacking the quality that could be offered--and that the masters can certainly provide--to offer customer-enticing extras and make do with smaller-capacity DVD's, so...? (I believe most if not all Superbit movies use DVD9?)
It is simply an additional offering, and it's certainly not fooling anyone. Superior visual and audio quality and no other frills. Excepting, of course, that they listened to customer complaints and also have "Superbit Deluxe" editions as well that provide a 2nd disk for extra features they might want. (Though sadly not commentaries, since those would have to take of audio space on the movie disk, and they'd have to make some quality concessions for that.)
Some consumers don't want their DVD's to hack the quality they could be getting from their movies for things they don't really care about or to save in production costs, the poor things.
It is simply an additional offering, and it's certainly not fooling anyone. Superior visual and audio quality and no other frills. Excepting, of course, that they listened to customer complaints and also have "Superbit Deluxe" editions as well that provide a 2nd disk for extra features they might want. (Though sadly not commentaries, since those would have to take of audio space on the movie disk, and they'd have to make some quality concessions for that.)
Some consumers don't want their DVD's to hack the quality they could be getting from their movies for things they don't really care about or to save in production costs, the poor things.
It's wasteful when the more custom technologies can't differentiate themselves well from competitors which are holding back in order to implement extra legacy support. If the performance and functionality boost isn't going to be done right at the changeover for a standard, it would be better to expand on the old standard and help to broaden its usefulness instead.
Jumping ahead for the sake of change had been suppressing a true successor to the cassette tape and its functionality for both playback and recording. DVD promised to bring both better capacity and rewritability along with it initially, but it took so long getting its act together at first that recordable CDs started to loom over the technological landscape. That sure got DVD moving to protect its interests, though.
Jumping ahead for the sake of change had been suppressing a true successor to the cassette tape and its functionality for both playback and recording. DVD promised to bring both better capacity and rewritability along with it initially, but it took so long getting its act together at first that recordable CDs started to loom over the technological landscape. That sure got DVD moving to protect its interests, though.
PC,
How could "superbit" be a hack when it plays back fine on any old DVD player you'd care to toss the disc at? If this is yet another of your countless digs at anything and everything (associated with) Sony, I have to say it's nothing but pathetic. You're the biggest fanbo y I ever saw. Mega-
Rabid,
LOTR SE actually doesn't have all that high bitrate for the picture, if you pause the image you can usually see MPEG blocking going on in the background. Many other DVDs are much cleaner, like Gladiator for example; absolutely flawless encoding there... I'm pretty sure this is because of the six (or if it's seven (!)) audio tracks and the multitude of subtitles also stored in the datastream, including the very high bitrate DTS track. I'm not complaining though, the quality when in motion is still superb, even in the most intense of scenes.
How could "superbit" be a hack when it plays back fine on any old DVD player you'd care to toss the disc at? If this is yet another of your countless digs at anything and everything (associated with) Sony, I have to say it's nothing but pathetic. You're the biggest fanbo y I ever saw. Mega-
Rabid,
LOTR SE actually doesn't have all that high bitrate for the picture, if you pause the image you can usually see MPEG blocking going on in the background. Many other DVDs are much cleaner, like Gladiator for example; absolutely flawless encoding there... I'm pretty sure this is because of the six (or if it's seven (!)) audio tracks and the multitude of subtitles also stored in the datastream, including the very high bitrate DTS track. I'm not complaining though, the quality when in motion is still superb, even in the most intense of scenes.
I'm not sure, but I think it had more to do with DMCA (Hollywood holding it back) than with the format being ready technologically.Lazy8s said:
What would be enought for BR to differenciate itself from DVD? How much is needed for it to be enough?
As much as from CD to DVD? Why? CD was(is) a format primarily for sound, whereas DVD is for video (let's not mix PC storage to this).
You can't make a comparison like "CD to DVD was 15 x, but DVD to BR is only 5x, thus BR is not a leap big enough to justify wasting custom technology on.
Nick Laslett
Regular
Wow, Sony's marketing magic must be really good if people think SuperBit is some kind of stop gap format that is superior to DVD.
SuperBit is a brand name. Whether SuperBit has a high average variable bit rate or not is irrelevant. By all definitions a superbit disc is identical to a regular DVD and will play on every DVD player ever made, from 1st generation to 6th.
Every movie should be encoded at the highest average variable bit rate space will allow, to give the best possible viewing/listening experience.
The fact that Sony call this SuperBit, makes no difference. There are many other studios that encode their movies to the same high standard, they just don't make a big deal about it.
The DVD format is a moving target when it comes to quality, because encoding improves with technology advances. A movie encoded today with the best technology available, will look much better than one encoded in 1997. This is the great thing about the MPEG2 standard, it just keeps getting better with age. The same is true with MP3, the encoding technology keeps improving.
SuperBit is a brand name. Whether SuperBit has a high average variable bit rate or not is irrelevant. By all definitions a superbit disc is identical to a regular DVD and will play on every DVD player ever made, from 1st generation to 6th.
Every movie should be encoded at the highest average variable bit rate space will allow, to give the best possible viewing/listening experience.
The fact that Sony call this SuperBit, makes no difference. There are many other studios that encode their movies to the same high standard, they just don't make a big deal about it.
The DVD format is a moving target when it comes to quality, because encoding improves with technology advances. A movie encoded today with the best technology available, will look much better than one encoded in 1997. This is the great thing about the MPEG2 standard, it just keeps getting better with age. The same is true with MP3, the encoding technology keeps improving.
I *said* SVHS is incompatible with VHS, not VHS was incompatible with SVHS.. I know that a VHS recording will play in a SVHS deck, however the opposite is not true (plus SVHS also requires more expensive, higher density metal tapes)...
And I can't believe the BS you're spewing about SuperBit... This is a real gem...
Sorry but aren't going to get 10Mbps out of a DVD period... The max total bit-rate permissible is 9.6Mbps...
Bahahahahhahaha!
Superbit is just a normal DVD. It's just devoid of extras so it has some extra space to have better quality encoding. Calling it a "hack" or a "stopgap" is just plain ridiculous. I mean, come on, there's already so much difference between various versions of DVDs - the original version of 2001 I got back in 2000 looks awful, but new updated versions have much better encoding - do you call that a hack, or a stopgap? How about Criterion collection discs - are they fragmenting the market because they have different quality encoding and features? What kind of "hack" do you think they are?
Superbit DVDs are still just plain old DVDs. Comparing them to the difference between S-VHS and VHS is crazy; those are two different pieces of technology.
Maybe you should complain about remastered CDs while you're at it; they're fragmented the market with their hacks and stopgaps too! How dare they put better quality on the same medium?!? What a hack!!
Superbit is just a normal DVD. It's just devoid of extras so it has some extra space to have better quality encoding. Calling it a "hack" or a "stopgap" is just plain ridiculous. I mean, come on, there's already so much difference between various versions of DVDs - the original version of 2001 I got back in 2000 looks awful, but new updated versions have much better encoding - do you call that a hack, or a stopgap? How about Criterion collection discs - are they fragmenting the market because they have different quality encoding and features? What kind of "hack" do you think they are?
Superbit DVDs are still just plain old DVDs. Comparing them to the difference between S-VHS and VHS is crazy; those are two different pieces of technology.
Maybe you should complain about remastered CDs while you're at it; they're fragmented the market with their hacks and stopgaps too! How dare they put better quality on the same medium?!? What a hack!!
Have you ever thought about taking a reading comprehension class? Please go back and read the post where S-VHS was mentioned and figure out why it was mentioned.(hint: resolution) Otherwise you're just wasting my time as I'm not here to teach people how to read. As for the rest of the other ramblings, read below.
It requires the stripping out of bonus material from the DVD so it's a hack.
Superbit is a hack just like VHS-HQ both offering minor improvements without the need for a totally new mechansim.
Whether it's software based or hardware based it's still a hack.
Not hacks:
S-VHS
Blu-ray
HD-DVD
Hacks:
Superbit
VHS-HQ
S-VHS ET
Ok, I was too hasty to comment you on the S-VHS and VHS-HQ thing. Sorry, I must've skipped some postings.PC-Engine said:
Have you ever thought about taking a reading comprehension class? Please go back and read the post where S-VHS was mentioned and figure out why it was mentioned.(hint: resolution) Otherwise you're just wasting my time as I'm not here to teach people how to read. As for the rest of the other ramblings, read below.
It requires the stripping out of bonus material from the DVD so it's a hack.
Superbit is a hack just like VHS-HQ both offering minor improvements without the need for a totally new mechansim.
Whether it's software based or hardware based it's still a hack.
Not hacks:
S-VHS
Blu-ray
HD-DVD
Hacks:
Superbit
VHS-HQ
S-VHS ET
Still, I don't get how you consider Superbit a stopgap solution that is fragmenting the DVD standard (emphasis on the words "fragmenting" and "standard").
That was the original thing that started the argument, right? Before you started diluting and confusing things with talking about some mysterious "hacks" and "stopgap solutions" (whatever those are).
That and whether BR is a similar "market fragmenter" is what was discussed.
You say Superbit (which requires absolutely no support from hardware) is fragmenting the market, whereas HD-DVD (which requires upgrading your hardware) is not fragmenting the market.
And you don't want fragmentation :? .... why isn't HD-DVD fragmenting the DVD standard then? Because it uses red laser?
What difference the colour of laser mean to the the end customer, in either case upgrade to the hardware is required. In the other case the customer only gets more.
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