PlayStation 3 to feature Blu-Ray disc - Official!

[wco81]

2. Regarding video codecs: Blu-ray WILL include at least one advanced video codec beyond MPEG-2. Current candidates include MPEG-4 AVC High profile and VC-9.

I'm placing my bet on H.264... It's already up and running with patent license while IIRC the MPEG LA members are still combing over the VC-9 source with a fine-tooth comb...

Do you know something we don't?

I thought MS had all kinds of hot-shot scientists.

 

[Cryect]

Hopefully DTS will be the standard Blu-ray audio codec!

Amen.

(Unfortunately, or well as things really are Dolby is the standard for HD home delivery.)
(DTS just seems better quality to me.)

Well you would expect a format that is compressed less to sound better

Really I want a lossless audio codec for BR or HD-DVD. 2.5 megs per minute per channel (44.1khz and 16 bits) means only couple gigs for up to ~130 minutes of video.

Edit: For those wondering the compression differences between DTS and Dolby 5.1

The DTS sound track isn't on the film at all, but on a separate CD, synchronised with SMPTE time code markings on the film. Since CDs output around 1,400 kilobits per second of digital audio, DTS was designed to use this bandwidth (actually, due to different error correction techniques, full DTS produces 1,536 kilobits per second). This had the additional advantage of allowing easier distribution of other-language sound tracks, without the expense of having to prepare new film prints with dubbed dialogue. In their DVD incarnations, Dolby Digital and DTS are similar systems. Both use a lossy compression system and in their 5.1 varieties, each offers the DVD producer two bit rates. Most Dolby Digital DVDs use 384kb/s but some use 448kb/s, which Dolby says is the maximum possible on a DVD. DTS can come at the original rate of 1536kb/s or the half-rate of 768kb/s (eg. Gladiator, Santana: Supernatural Live and all of Columbia TriStar Superbit DVDs).

http://www.hifi-writer.com/he/dolbydts/dolbydts.htm

 

[David_South#1]

Thanks, that is really informative.

I suspected DTS had a higher bitrate. Why else would Lord of The Rings need multiple multilayer DVDs? Also it adds to the quote about video space and HD compressed sample bitrates rates on Blu-ray. With 36Mbit/sec (2x that by next year) reading for higher resolution images and phat DTS files the world seems... pretty.

Oh and another reason Blu-ray should support 1080p image storage is xHD3 DLP displays.
They are native 1080p resolution and start coming out at the end of this year.

Fun ideas,
Which do you suppose is easier to get good results from, downsampling or upsampling?
My guess is better quality and easier results from downsampling.
If they do that, then may as well store Blu-ray movies in a 24fps manner too.
Leave it to the hardware to multiple the frames.

I read DLP RPTV produces a better image with a higher speed color wheel.
One solution would be to have dual-speed color wheeling in HDTV's running at 60 @ 72 fps.

 

[Ty]

I read DLP RPTV produces a better image with a higher speed color wheel.
One solution would be to have dual-speed color wheeling in HDTV's running at 60 @ 72 fps.

It produces a less noticeable rainbow affect. Oh and I thought that there already are DLPs with 3 color wheels (or I could be jumping the gun and they've only been announced).

Also making the wheels with more segments (e.g. 7 bands of color vs. 5 or 6) also helps.

 

[timlot1]

http://dvd.ign.com/articles/538/538449p1.html

"Blu-ray is one of two formats competing to be the replacement of DVD-ROM technology. The format officially endorsed by the DVD Forum, which helped steer DVD from the drawing board to the market, is HD-DVD, developed by Toshiba and NEC. Both use a blue laser, which allows for denser packing of data.

However, the Blu-ray disc has higher capacity - 25GB on a single density disc vs. 15GB on a single-density HD-DVD disc - and it can also have more than two layers. HD-DVD, like regular DVD, can have two layers, for double density discs. Blu-ray, however, has gone to four layers.

TDK, which recently joined the BDA, has demonstrated a quad-density Blu-ray disc with 100GB of capacity and reportedly has a 200GB disc in the labs. That quad density disc is the equivalent to 10 standard double density DVD discs"

Wow 200GB on one disc!

 

[David_South#1]

I read DLP RPTV produces a better image with a higher speed color wheel.
One solution would be to have dual-speed color wheeling in HDTV's running at 60 @ 72 fps.

It produces a less noticeable rainbow affect. Oh and I thought that there already are DLPs with 3 color wheels (or I could be jumping the gun and they've only been announced).

Also making the wheels with more segments (e.g. 7 bands of color vs. 5 or 6) also helps.

There are DLP's with three color wheels because they use three projctors.
xHD3 is still unclear to me but I believe it is a single 1920x1080 DMD.
It is my very loose understanding that triple version is for commerical theater use.

You are very correct bout the wheel. By adding more color bands the wheel doesn't have to turn as fast. I think the seventh color is a new addition to the primary set. I can't recall if it's green or some other color.

I'm going to have to start looking all of this up.
Jumping around forums I forgot the level here is a notch above the usual.

 

[PC-Engine]

Each chip in a 3-chip DLP only controls one of the three R G or B colors. 3 chip DLPs are more expensive than single chip models obviously, but they're not solely for professional commercial use. Commercial use models depends on high brightness usually over 6K ANSI Lumens and the size of the projected image around 40'. The number of DMDs have little to do with whether it's commercial or not. The main factor in HT PJs is CR and resolution.

3 chip DLPs can be compared to 3 CCD progressive digital video cameras.

Regarding the xHD3 chip, well it's a single chip with 1920x1080p resolution, but that doesn't mean you can't use 3 of them one for each of the R, G, and B colors to eliminate the need for a color wheel.

Correction: It seems 3 chip DLPs dont need to use color wheels at all. They just have static R, G, or B color filters for each of the 3 DMDs.

 

[Quaz51]

The Mpeg4 AVC HP is very good contrary to the simple Mpeg4 AVC that is bad for the HD, inferior to the Mpeg2 in this condition

 

[wco81]

That's an interesting chart. So at 15-20 Mbps, MPEG2 is at parity with AVC or even a bit better. So much for claims of superiority at half or a third the bitrate.

How would VC-9 fare?

 

[KnightBreed]

Just a correction regarding the xHD3 chip. It is not a 1920x1080 native chip. There are only 960 mirrors horizontally in a diamond pattern. The "native" res is actually 960x1080. Using some sort of interpolation the diamond shaped mirrors serve double duty in recreating 1920 pixels across, or a reasonable facsimile. I'm not sure I understand it entirely, so here is link to avsforum.com with some pictures and more info.

TI already has a true 2K DMD that is 2048x1080 native, but the chip is huge and extremely expensive. Its only available in theater applications from companies like Christie.

 

[archie4oz]

To hear some WMV advocates tell it, VC-9 at 8 Mbps was better than MPEG2 at any bit rate.

This is just sillyness

Do you know something we don't?

I thought MS had all kinds of hot-shot scientists.

What difference does that make?

The Mpeg4 AVC HP is very good contrary to the simple Mpeg4 AVC that is bad for the HD

Eh?

That's an interesting chart. So at 15-20 Mbps, MPEG2 is at parity with AVC or even a bit better. So much for claims of superiority at half or a third the bitrate.

Actually the official claim is quarter of the bandwidth. You *should* realize that H.264 encoders are still in their infancy while MPEG2 encoders are far more mature... MPEG2 encoders nowadays can achieve quality at 4Mbps that an MPEG2 encoder 5 years ago would've needed 8Mbps... Expect similar if not greater improvements in H.264...

How would VC-9 fare?

Worse... It tends to break down quite a bit around explosions (like most codecs do)...

 

[David_South#1]

Knightbreed, that is an awesome link. Mr. Wiggles is really sharp. The Smooth Vision screens I've seen on Samsungs for DLP RPTV should really help with blending the final image, his real image demo shows.

So after everything that has been said, does anyone know if Blu-ray ROM will use a cartridge?

My guess for PS3 is that it will.
How does this effect the playing of DVD's and CD's?

 

[PC-Engine]

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/04/13/news_6093440.html

"A lot of things have been said about the failure of the PSX inside the company, but it was probably due to the unrealistic way that its development was conducted," says an unnamed source close to Sony. "The development [of the PSX] was being handled by the games division and the next-generation Blu-ray Disc development division. The [PSX's] controls were being developed by the games division, while the Blu-ray Disc division was doing the AV parts. But the divisions couldn't work too well together. As a result, the capabilities of the PSX became incoherent, and it ended up as a machine that's neither a game console nor a DVD recorder."

I hope PS3 using BR doesn't turn into a fiasco.

 

[Ty]

I hope PS3 using BR doesn't turn into a fiasco.

For some reason I doubt the veracity of your statement. I'll never understand why people such as your self get boners from the thought that a company might fail. Reminds me of that crazy guy who thought he could hang with real devs. Why be a hater?

Fyi I don't own a PS2 but own the other main consoles so I don't think I qualify as a Sony fan.

 

[PC-Engine]

I hope PS3 using BR doesn't turn into a fiasco.

For some reason I doubt the veracity of your statement. I'll never understand why people such as your self get boners from the thought that a company might fail. Reminds me of that crazy guy who thought he could hang with real devs. Why be a hater?

Fyi I don't own a PS2 but own the other main consoles so I don't think I qualify as a Sony fan.

Nah I just get a laugh when fanbois hype up a product on looks alone then when the product bombs they quickly jump ship and never bring it up again. PSP is also slowly starting to look like PSX.

 

[jvd]

I hope PS3 using BR doesn't turn into a fiasco.

For some reason I doubt the veracity of your statement. I'll never understand why people such as your self get boners from the thought that a company might fail. Reminds me of that crazy guy who thought he could hang with real devs. Why be a hater?

Fyi I don't own a PS2 but own the other main consoles so I don't think I qualify as a Sony fan.

Personaly I wish both companys would use the same format .

I as a consumer don't want to have to buy a blueray player to watch star wars movies and then go buy a hd dvd player to watch the terminator trillogy.



Its one of the things i'm starting to get annoyed with on the consoles . Thats why i like my pc . I can buy a amd chip and a ati video card and play the same gaems as a user with a intel chip and a nvidia card . Though i'm starting to get pissed off with twimtp titles

 

[Ty]

Nah I just get a laugh when fanbois hype up a product on looks alone then when the product bombs they quickly jump ship and never bring it up again. PSP is also slowly starting to look like PSX.

That's fair enough but you seem to be hyping up HD-DVD just as much as some are hyping BR. Me? I'm sitting on the fence since at this point in time, neither affects me nor does either really interest me because I can't go out and get one now.

 

[PC-Engine]

Nah I just get a laugh when fanbois hype up a product on looks alone then when the product bombs they quickly jump ship and never bring it up again. PSP is also slowly starting to look like PSX.

That's fair enough but you seem to be hyping up HD-DVD just as much as some are hyping BR. Me? I'm sitting on the fence since at this point in time, neither affects me nor does either really interest me because I can't go out and get one now.

I support the direction the DVD Forum has gone with HD-DVD. The technology is solid. There's no hyping behind it. It speaks for itself. It's progressing well, things are and have been accomplished. There's a solid launch plan.

I don't hype about Xenon needing it to bolster mass acceptance. I mostly only talk about HD-DVD where it applies to movies and the PC industry not games. It's like my stance on LCD vs Plasma, there's no hype. I just think one format has more advantages than the other so I voice my opinion. That's not hype. Hype is when a person supports a product that claims a million things on paper, but ends up being subpar doing nothing well, but looks good while doing....well nothing.

Here's an example:

Ultimately, the SDM-HS73P looks like an object lesson in style over content.

Sony SDM-HS73P Rating 60%

Just makes me want to go out and buy one...not!

Oh btw here's the new PSX, I'm sure the fanbois will be all over this too.

http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/images/sony_typex.jpg

 

[-tkf-]

I support the direction the DVD Forum has gone with HD-DVD. The technology is solid. There's no hyping behind it. It speaks for itself. It's progressing well, things are and have been accomplished. There's a solid launch plan.

HD-DVD sounds like a to big compromise where short term gains has won over long term advantages for the user. I don't think the storage capacity is anywhere near impressive and while the WM9 codec is pretty good i haven't been knocked out by what i have seen on my own Projector.

Personally i would prefer a next gen codec at HD MPEG2 bitrates.

Ohh and what was that Sony LCD link about?

 

[jvd]

I support the direction the DVD Forum has gone with HD-DVD. The technology is solid. There's no hyping behind it. It speaks for itself. It's progressing well, things are and have been accomplished. There's a solid launch plan.

HD-DVD sounds like a to big compromise where short term gains has won over long term advantages for the user. I don't think the storage capacity is anywhere near impressive and while the WM9 codec is pretty good i haven't been knocked out by what i have seen on my own Projector.

Personally i would prefer a next gen codec at HD MPEG2 bitrates.

Ohh and what was that Sony LCD link about?

Personaly i would have liked to have waited for the 100gb red laser discs.

I think they are both short term solutions made only for the companys to get rich