Plasma > LCD

ShaidarHaran, I think you should look up the meaning of 20/20. By definition it can't resolve that kind of resolution. Just as when an optometrist tests your eyes, one could draw 5 pixel high letters on the 1080p display and 20/20 vision couldn't distinguish them.
 
Mintmaster said:
ShaidarHaran, I think you should look up the meaning of 20/20. By definition it can't resolve that kind of resolution. Just as when an optometrist tests your eyes, one could draw 5 pixel high letters on the 1080p display and 20/20 vision couldn't distinguish them.
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So why can I distinguish a difference between 720p and 1080 on my 42" plasma using the same source material sitting 8' away with < 20/20 vision? That's both scaled and unscaled, mind you.
 
ShaidarHaran said:
So why can I distinguish a difference between 720p and 1080 on my 42" plasma using the same source material sitting 8' away with < 20/20 vision? That's both scaled and unscaled, mind you.
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You're gimping the 720p image somewhat by displaying it on a 1080p display. The finest details will get smudged.

If you had a 768p display next to your current one, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Not if you truly have <20/20 vision and are looking at an unaliased source.
 
Mintmaster said:
You're gimping the 720p image somewhat by displaying it on a 1080p display. The finest details will get smudged.
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I mentioned having tested both scaled and unscaled. Yes, unscaled 720p does look better than scaled, but it's also < half the pixels and makes things a wee bit harder to see.

Mintmaster said:
If you had a 768p display next to your current one, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Not if you truly have <20/20 vision and are looking at an unaliased source.
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Can you give me an example of an "unaliased source" that isn't just a pre-rendered or down-sampled static image?
 
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ShaidarHaran said:
I mentioned having tested both scaled and unscaled.
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Unless you have another display, that's impossible. 720p must be scaled to fill the screen of your 1080p TV. You don't know what a 768p or 720p native image looks like in your viewing area.

If we use 1080p material as a source - perhaps edge quality would be equivocal, but I do not accept that no difference can be observed.
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Shaidar, I don't know what more we can do to convince you.

If you took an optometrist's chart and scaled it so that the thickness of the letters matched a 768p pixel, you'd need 20/20 vision to barely read it. If you scaled it so that the letter thickness matched a 1080p pixel, by definition 20/20 could not read the letters.

There may be a qualitative difference, but 20/20 vision cannot discern any details from the 1080p image that it could not see in the 720p image. That is fact.

Minor differences would come from pixel/edge alignment of objects in the screen and image processing, sometimes being sharper on the 768p display and sometimes on the 1080p display. Aliased 1080p rendering from a console is a special case of the latter. An example of an unaliased image would be almost any movie, or a high resolution photo downscaled to 1080p.
 
Shaidar,

If your TV is a 1080p set, it's going to display in 1080p regardless of what you feed it. It's going to scale. If you feed it a 1080p source, it'll show it in 1080p (dot by dot hopefully). Naturally the 1080p source has more information.

What you're seeing from distance isn't the diff between 720/1080 you're seeing the difference in the quality of the source and more importantly the quality of the scaler in your set.

If you want to do a proper test. Take a Pioneer PRO1150 50inch (1366x768) and give it a 1080P source. Then take a PRO110 50inch (1920x1080) and give it the same 1080P source. Now stand back about 8ft and see and see how much of a diff you can tell. Between, me, my gf and my best friend with all great vision, we could not tell the difference. The reason I picked the Pio Elites for my example is due to their great processing and scaling since it doesn't butcher the picture. This is the closest you can come to really trying to determine if you can diffentiate between 720 and 1080 at certain distances.
 
ShaidarHaran said:
You can use terms like "science" and "objective" and even cite sources all you like, but the simple fact that my < 20/20 eyesight is able to resolve 1080p resolution should tell you what kind of "science" you're referrencing, that being junk.

I'm sure I've seen the same sites you've seen discussing the matter, you know the ones with the nice graph that shows appropriate resolution for display size and viewing distance.
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I am not talking about any charts, I am taling about the science behind them.

ShaidarHaran said:
I take issue with the information you are presenting, because my own real-life experience does not corroborate these so-called "scientific, objective" findings.
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Again, I have been talking about the value of display resolution, while your experience with varying input resolutions can't corroborate what I've been saying as they are two separate subjects.

I am curious though, exactly what display you are using anyway?
 
kyleb said:
But can you name one rational reason to spend more for those 880 lines, or even 1080 lines, when you are going to be viewing it at a distance where your eyes (assuming you don't have better than 20/20 vision) can't even fully resolve what a 768p plasma will provide at a lesser price?
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Why in the world would I want to buy a 768 set so everything I would watch would need to be scaled. Nothing could display at native res except my desktop.

That seems silly to me.
 
RobertR1 said:
Shaidar,

If your TV is a 1080p set, it's going to display in 1080p regardless of what you feed it. It's going to scale. If you feed it a 1080p source, it'll show it in 1080p (dot by dot hopefully). Naturally the 1080p source has more information.
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I have my PC hooked up via DVI->HDMI adapter and I most certainly can run non-native resolutions unscaled. My testing consisted of playing several PC titles (Oblivion, MS Flight Simulator 2004, and all Orange Box titles) at both 720p and 1080p (scaled and unscaled for 720p).
 
Guys, I'm not debating the science behind visual accuity.

All I'm saying is that in my personal experience of testing PC games in 720p and 1080p both scaled and unscaled, 1080p looks better. I'm not saying I can resolve a 5-pixel-high letter at 1080p and 8' or some nonsense. All I've said is "I can see the difference". Images appear sharper at 1080p than at 720p to my eyes.
 
ShaidarHaran said:
All I'm saying is that in my personal experience of testing PC games in 720p and 1080p both scaled and unscaled, 1080p looks better. I'm not saying I can resolve a 5-pixel-high letter at 1080p and 8' or some nonsense. All I've said is "I can see the difference". Images appear sharper at 1080p than at 720p to my eyes.
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A 720p image upscaled to a 1080p display is not the same as a 1080p image fit to a 768p display.

You're not comparing the right things. Look at where this discussion started.
 
Mintmaster said:
A 720p image upscaled to a 1080p display is not the same as a 1080p image fit to a 768p display.

You're not comparing the right things. Look at where this discussion started.
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I understand that completely. I'm not sure what I've said that would imply otherwise... I mentioned supersampling as a result of downscaling specifically so.....
 
Sxotty said:
Why in the world would I want to buy a 768 set so everything I would watch would need to be scaled. Nothing could display at native res except my desktop.

That seems silly to me.
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Because the 720p 42 inch plasmas were either 1024x768 or 1366x768 (usually for 50inchers and above). Not an exact 1280x720 as many believe.
 
Hey RobertR1, what is the latest story on the Pioneer-Panasonic Plasma TV partnership ? How does the new TV compare to Kuro (if they are out) ?
 
patsu said:
Hey RobertR1, what is the latest story on the Pioneer-Panasonic Plasma TV partnership ? How does the new TV compare to Kuro (if they are out) ?
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The new Kuro's are all Pioneer. Next year, Panasonic will provide the glass. The algorithms and processing will still be all Pioneer. Panasonic will obviously learn the glass tech but the Pioneer advantage is 3 fold and they'll still hold the other 2 in secret.

Hopefully what it means for the consumer is cheaper Pioneer panels which even better PQ.

It's really not that big of a deal. Happens in LCD land also. Sony/Samsung/Sharp all use the same panels but clearly each set is quite unique.
 
RobertR1 said:
It's really not that big of a deal. Happens in LCD land also. Sony/Samsung/Sharp all use the same panels but clearly each set is quite unique.
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Actually I think samsung still uses their own, Sony just flipped from samsung to sharp. Toshiba I think will also be buying from sharp. That doesn't really change your point tho.
 
AlphaWolf said:
Actually I think samsung still uses their own, Sony just flipped from samsung to sharp. Toshiba I think will also be buying from sharp. That doesn't really change your point tho.
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Thanks for the correctin. All this corporate whoring can be hard to keep track of :)
 
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