Official PSP Thread

What someone once told me was that mip-mapping is done on PS2 (obviously you can tell in newer titles) but that it doesn't follow the standard "du/dv" SGI formula but instead the developer has to implement a distance method to calculate mip maps. I assume that's true by the fact that textures don't seem to blur correctly at sharp angles (as on DC), but it could still be wrong.
It's true, on PS2 developers have to implement some of the mip-mapping calculations, that are in most other hardwares completely automated, and those calculations can be of lower or higher precision. That is why the quality of mip-mapping implementation vary on PS2 titles. Some indeed exibit the problem you described (Primal for example) some don't, and have implementation that looks perfectly 'regular' (like in Jak 2)

I have also noticed that some developers (regardless of platform) prefer not to use heavy mip-mapping, as to not blur the background too much (AF still seems to be too expensive on consoles, as extremely few games use it). I think that's why we sometimes see minor shimmering even in games that utilize mip-mapping - DOA3 for example.

but that it's more ram than we have ever had in a portable before.
Yes, but other PSP specs are so far ahead of any handheld released so far, that the amount or RAM doesn't feel nearly as much far ahead from the pack. As a matter of fact, in some instances it's just on-par, if you compare it to already released Zodiac (which dedicates 12MB of it's RAM to game execution). Zodiac 'only' outputs near-PSX quality graphics, btw. so you'd expect more RAM for something that is aiming to reach DC or PS2 visual quality. I'd love if developers prove me wrong, od course, and that some kind of disc streaming can be utilized to alleviate the lack of memory, but from what I've seen so far, it's been mostly developers who complained about the memory in the first place.

PSP's fill-rate isn't insubstancial.
Indeed, that's almost an understatement - fillrate is almost on par with PS2 (which is one of that machine's strongest points) considering that the amount of pixels it needs to render is much lower.

Dave, thanks for your MBX summary. Sounds like a very good chip, and I just hope it's someday going to be used in a machine that will gather around game developers worthy of it's capabilities.
 
Paul said:
Yea but wouldn't more ram on the die decrease in cost faster than external ram ?

Yes it would.

We'll wait and see what happens, I still have doubts that Sony is even concidering dropping some of the e-DRAM let alone add External memory.

Personally I don't think of PSP's ram to be limiting at all, I think of it as not a shortage, but that it's more ram than we have ever had in a portable before.

But hasn't external memory fallen in cost pari passu to logic devices? I know when I built my first (as an individual) PC in 1996 I paid 125 dollars American for 8MB of EDO. Now you can buy 512MB of 3200DDR for less than half that cost. That sounds like a steep downward curve to me.

Paul (thanks for taking my name bro :LOL: ), given that that our reference here is the Gameboy line, simply "more" memory isn't all that impressive. Given Nintendo's inattention to the processing ability of their handhelds (which I predict is coming to a brutal close), a more insightful comparision would be to modern PDA's and devices of that nature.
 
Well, according to what I'm told, thats the change. eDRAM reduced, external RAM added. I've got a figure of 16MB, but I don't know if thats the full count or just the external.

If that's the case, this is what most likely to happen,

they take out all the 8 MB segment of main memory that is embedded, leaving the 2 MB for the GPU and 2 MB for the second core embedded.

And in place they put on either 16 MB, or 8 + 16 MB, or 8 + 4 MB of external memory chips.

I just don't see them segmenting the main memory.

Really, its not going to effect performance, it'll probably improve, since most likely bandwidth stays the same and amount of memory increases.

However, this add to cost.

Of course, they can just embed the extra memory, or stick to the original plan.

Also what's up with this thread, it seems buggy.
 
How exactly is that abomination supposed to work? :devilish:
I mean, embeded main memory, and external block to feed it? So what, I put half of the code in eDram and then use overlays for the rest? :?
I have an idea Sony, make it 16MB VRam instead, and cut the GPU back a bit will ya, say, 400Kpoly/sec peak sounds good enough...
ehm...

Unless they completely redesigned the thing (make all the main ram external, keep only media and VRam embeded), I am going to be severely dissapointed with this.

The quanties that were spec'ed up seem to be very low for any kind of texturing and the addition of RAM should make dev's lives much easier in terms of texture usage.
The kind of memory segmentation that looks likely right now will make my life more miserable then easy, thank you very much.
 
Unless they completely redesigned the thing (make all the main ram external, keep only media and VRam embeded), I am going to be severely dissapointed with this.

That's what I thought as well.

But I think its better of for Sony to just find a way to embed the extra memory, or stick with the original design.

If they go with external memory, they should definitely go for more than 16 MB, its just pointless to go all the trouble for that much extra.
 
So what would be the final figure ?

2Mb of edRAM on GPU
4Mb of edRAm for main purposes (texture pool, poly models, code, sound...)
???Mb of RAM...


It doesn't seem a wise idea to cut the on-board main edRAM but as some have pointed perhaps there is enough bandwith with the edRAM and RAM to do the updates one considers necessary.
That would suppose a pain to developers, wouldn't it ? If you have to be constantly paying atention at what do you need, where is it and how much will last to be uploaded then development wouldn't be so "nice".
But perhaps the use of the main edRAM as a pool for textures and poly meshes while the main RAM serves other purposes that don't need so much bandwith would be the solution...
Anyways, 8MB of main eDRAM would be nicer.
 
So what would be the final figure ?

2Mb of edRAM on GPU
4Mb of edRAm for main purposes (texture pool, poly models, code, sound...)
???Mb of RAM...

It doesn't seem a wise idea to cut the on-board main edRAM but as some have pointed perhaps there is enough bandwith with the edRAM and RAM to do the updates one considers necessary.
That would suppose a pain to developers, wouldn't it ? If you have to be constantly paying atention at what do you need, where is it and how much will last to be uploaded then development wouldn't be so "nice".
But perhaps the use of the main edRAM as a pool for textures and poly meshes while the main RAM serves other purposes that don't need so much bandwith would be the solution...
Anyways, 8MB of main eDRAM would be nicer.

The memory is segmented as it is. So they can pull out the main memory and used external memory chip instead. The bandwidth of this main memory is 2.6 GB/s, so external memory chip shouldn't have problem coping with that requirement.

However, if they go the trouble to implement this route, they might as well put alot more memory than the rumour of 16 MB for the system.
 
The existing RAM spec wasn't going to work, Sony had no choice but to do something... I don't know much about making chips but adding eDRAM sounds harder than external DRAM.

I think the idea is that the basic architecture stays the same (no direct access to external RAM) with the external RAM being used as a cache for data off the disc and a place to store overlays/long term memory etc.

Seems similar to Gamecube architecture, and I know of no GC devs who could live without A-RAM.

Getting the choice between a very low amount of simple to use RAM or more RAM but trickier to use. I'd go with more, better to have to write some kind of 'virtual' RAM allocator than just start reducing artwork, game code, etc.

Of course in an ideal world, we would have loads of really simple fast RAM but then us devs would probably be paid less if everything was so simple :devilish:

[speculation mode]

One thing that hasn't been considered is prehaps the drop in eDRAM and the adding of external RAM aren't connected... What if the latest research simple indiacated they couldn't fit 12Mb of eDRAM on the chip? With devs already complaining about amount of RAM, and the chip guys asking for a reduction in eDRAM, maybe this segmentation solved both problems (with a little bit of headache managing it all).

The other assumption everbody has made it that its the main 8Mb pool thats been reduced... What if they have just unified the 2 other pools into the main pool?

[/speculation mode]
 
But hasn't external memory fallen in cost pari passu to logic devices? I know when I built my first (as an individual) PC in 1996 I paid 125 dollars American for 8MB of EDO. Now you can buy 512MB of 3200DDR for less than half that cost. That sounds like a steep downward curve to me.

It doesn't work that way heh, can't just look at the price of External memory for the PC market and say there are no reasons why you couldn't put a good ammount in.

There are bigger variables.
 
I have an idea Sony, make it 16MB VRam instead, and cut the GPU back a bit will ya, say, 400Kpoly/sec peak sounds good enough...
ehm...
Come on now Faf :) 400K is too low. That's like PS1! Why would you even need that much memory on a device, then.

Slow external RAM works for Gamecube, it should work here too, as long as the memeory swapping process is automated enough.
 
Paul said:
It doesn't work that way heh, can't just look at the price of External memory for the PC market and say there are no reasons why you couldn't put a good ammount in.

There are bigger variables.

Yes obviously, in fact the power needed by external buses is one of the largest consumers of power in a portable embedded device. I was just wondering why some were saying that the cost of memory doesn't fall as fast as logic.
 
Paul said:
It doesn't work that way heh, can't just look at the price of External memory for the PC market and say there are no reasons why you couldn't put a good ammount in.

There are bigger variables.

IMO as soon as you put external memory in in the first place you might as well include a good amount, it will not have much additional impact on cost or power consumption (the unused parts of the memory dont have to consume much power).

Memory is cheap, really cheap ... it is a pity the technology for flipped chip stacked ICs still has some kinks left. In theory such MCMs could could remove the need for eDRAM completely.
 
Come on now Faf 400K is too low. That's like PS1! Why would you even need that much memory on a device, then.
The thing is Marc, I wasn't just being sarcastic (it's not related to PSP though).
Remember Zodiac has a lot of ram for games too and its performance is even much lower. Not to even mention NGage :p

Mfa said:
Memory is cheap, really cheap...
Which is why if this IS true, they should add a sizeable amount of it instead of adding table scraps.
I'd be more then happy to put up with more segmentation if they add 32-64MB external ram.
 
From ISSCC 2001

Power-Cutting eDRAM Macro
Blocks of eDRAM have been incorporated into graphics controllers and other high-performance systems where capacity and system performance were the prime considerations. But, new portable systems that need the density of DRAM but must operate at considerably lower power levels than the graphics systems don't yet have a low-power eDRAM solution. That promises to change, though, thanks to a 32-Mbit eDRAM macro developed by Mitsubishi and Sony. The device trims active power to less than 200 mW when operating at 230 MHz, and standby power to just 125 mW. The companies also developed a 64-Mbit macro.

To achieve the low power drain, the chip's designers were able to back off a little on device performance because the intended market—MP3 players, MPEG devices, and other small handheld devices—wasn't as performance-critical as, for instance, the laptop graphics market. To reduce performance losses due to operating from a 1-V supply, four levels of copper interconnect and low-resistance poly-metal gates that have a resistance of only 4 W/square are deployed.

I wonder if that's the eDRAM technology that they're basing the PSP processor on. When I read this years ago, I should have known Sony were developing a handheld.

Well, if they do actually go for the more traditional route of using external memory, it would be such a shame.
 
Chris Deering talks PlayStation
chris_deering_01.jpg


uk.playstation.com said:
Say goodbye to the President of SCEE and hello to the new President of Sony Europe. Chris Deering talks to PlayStation.com about online gaming, PSX, PSP and more.

As President of Sony Computer Entertainment Europe, Chris Deering has been a driving force behind the PlayStation business in Europe from the very beginning. He's recently been appointed as President of Sony Europe, tasked with instigating closer collaboration between the various divisions and bringing a little PlayStation magic to other areas of the Sony business. As he prepares to take up the reigns of Sony Europe, Chris talks to PlayStation.com about the current state of play and the exciting developments underway in the world of PlayStation.

Congratulations on your promotion. Can you tell us about your new job?

Sony hardware has been in Europe for 50 years or so and has a great heritage, a strong brand image and a lot of fans. Sony, over the years, acquired skills in movies and music and then of course, in the last ten years, in games, so it's well positioned to leverage these skills to make new kinds of entertainment and new kinds of devices, maybe even new kinds of network devices for redefining entertainment in the future.

The success of PlayStation has been noted, obviously, by senior management in Japan, and I think they felt that I could bring some of that energy and imagery to the broader Sony business, along with bringing the companies a little more close together. So, the opportunities are exciting, there's plenty to be done but there's a great base of products, not only in TVs, DVD players and DVD recorders, but also the still and camcorder product lines and of course the Vaio line. As we now face the launch of PSP, it's a good reason and a good opportunity to bring the thinking and the style of the hardware company and the PlayStation company a little more closely into alignment, and I'm looking forward to it.

Will your new role mean changes in the way that Sony Electronics and SCEE work together?

Well, it might mean that there's more contact between the people, maybe some meetings, co-operation on making the best out of PSX and maybe even PSP. But I think the companies will stay separate; PlayStation is heavily reliant on software sales, software creation, third party relations and third party royalties, and the business model for PlayStation is not the same as a hardware only model. With PlayStation being so important to the overall success of Sony and the overall profits of Sony, it makes sense to leave that operating in its own style and its own way.

But I think there'll be more collaboration, and hopefully more fun, shared between the companies, and even between the music and movie companies eventually. Because in Europe, we have a unique situation where everybody's a little closer together. In the headquarters and in the territories, there are close relationships between the various divisions, so maybe we can lead the way and show the world how Sony can make the best of its resources by better co-operation in Europe.

Where do you see Network Gaming this time next year?

The evolution of online gaming for TV-based consoles has an amazingly exciting future. The first thing that has to happen is people have to hook up their TVs. Where people already have cable modems working to feed their desktops, this is a lot easier and, of course, where there's no broadband availability, it's impossible. The price of broadband in Europe has been a limiting factor, and continues to be a limiting factor, but it is coming down pretty rapidly. The kind of services and features we have on PlayStation network gaming, including the Central Station portal and some of the new features on the network gaming service, are going to be very widely noticed as the new line-up of products comes out.

We've had tremendous success so far with SOCOM, and now EverQuest is starting to gain some users, but the best is yet to come, with some fantastic features on This Is Football, GT4, Formula One, and other games from our own studios, as well as many new games from third party studios. We're carefully and cautiously rolling the features out to make sure that they all work with ultimate reliability, because we know that console users appreciate, and in fact demand, plug-and-play simplicity. Online gaming will become a major part of the market for PlayStation 2 and of course, in future generations with Cell chip and even more affordable broadband, may become the main way that people play.

PSX is coming next year. Do you see that as a particularly significant and important product for the business?

The screen in the living room is now able to deliver dozens of TV channels and, in some cases, more than a hundred channels, depending on the satellite or cable system that you're hooked up to, but online interactive use of television is in its infancy. Attempts in the past have been made with web TV and, more recently, with Tivo type PVR features, and they've got amazing reviews from people who use them and who understand them, but the mass market still hasn't quite caught onto that. But it is happening, and we think that PlayStation is an efficient and very exciting way to open up the world of what you really can do in your living room using the power of PlayStation, the Emotion Engine, the graphics chip and navigation software.

PSX makes that all very simple with a fun and easily understood navigation system, which is the core of it really. And once you have that in place, along with the sizeable hard drive capacity, you can also do other things that make more sense in the living room than on the desktop. For example, edit your home movies, do your own playlists for living room enjoyment with music and even more robust forms of online gaming; possibly downloading demos of games, or at least non-playable video of games and, with an electronic programme guide, even allowing the power of PlayStation to create your own channel for you.

So it's still early days for the general category, but the signs in Japan are that the interest in PSX is rapidly skyrocketing; the hits on the website, the pre-orders on the mail order side of the business, the .com delivery method, as well as pre-orders in stores would suggest that there's a revolution about to happen, and we're very excited that it's coming to Europe.

What can you tell us about PSP at the moment?

There have been a number of announcements and even pictures on the web of a prototype design for PSP. Everyone understands immediately what a PSP is; it's the Walkman of the next century, it brings TV quality of portable gaming into existence for the first time, with a massive UMD disc enabling content that was never before possible in a portable mode. But the features of music playing (the MP3) and Memory Stick feature, along with the capacity to handle all kind of video content in addition to the great games, and maybe even more features that involve GPRS modems, location-based (GPS type) software, messaging and other features make it a very handy thing to have and something which will be very fashionable to be seen with. So, we're excited and hope we can get enough.


Has the interest from third party publishers and developers been strong?

The interest has been strong right from the first time that Ken Kutaragi announced it back at E3 in May. We're working very closely with a number of developers and publishers. There are some elements of development tools that are available to get a sense of how to write games for it, and these kind of tools are being expanded and distributed more widely, and will be even more over the coming months. <u>There's no official date for its unveiling, but it has been announced that the target date for its global launch is November 2004</u>, so I'm pretty sure it'll be widely announced plenty of time ahead of that.

With two new products - PSX &amp; PSP - on the horizon, how do you see the PlayStation family of products co-existing in the market place?

PlayStation has been an evolution as well as a revolution. When we started, we had PlayStation and that migrated into PS one, along with the arrival of PlayStation 2 with backwards compatibility. I think people have come to know, understand and expect that continuing evolutions will occur and that compatibility will be maximised. It's true that PSP is not directly compatible with PS one or PlayStation 2, but it may have several areas of compatibility, through the Memory Stick, with PSX. Consumers are getting smarter and more familiar with the digital era and the different ways to enjoy interactive entertainment. PlayStation has their trust and their loyalty, and we hope to continue delivering a lot of variety that makes fun with PlayStation even more dynamic and exciting.
 
[URL said:
http://www.gamespot.com/all/news/news_6087083.html[/URL]]During today's earnings-report conference call, Electronic Arts chief executive officer Larry Probst revealed that the publisher has eight to 12 titles in development or Sony's upcoming handheld console, the PSP. According to Probst, all PSP titles will be launched during the company's fiscal year 2005, which runs from calendar March 2004 to March 2005.
My gosh, 12 titles?!
 
ChryZ said:
[URL said:
http://www.gamespot.com/all/news/news_6087083.html[/URL]]During today's earnings-report conference call, Electronic Arts chief executive officer Larry Probst revealed that the publisher has eight to 12 titles in development or Sony's upcoming handheld console, the PSP. According to Probst, all PSP titles will be launched during the company's fiscal year 2005, which runs from calendar March 2004 to March 2005.
My gosh, 12 titles?!

Fifa 2003, Fifa 2004, Fifa 2005, Fifa World Cup, Fifa Olympics, and of course, Fifa 2006. :LOL:

I think they'll just port existing games like The Sims, FIFA, Madden, Hockey, Golf,... I wonder why anyone should care.
 
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