nVidia building the PS3 GPU in its "entirety"

[Paul]

The NVPS3 will be a graphics processor built from the ground up(using NV50 tech) to operate and compliment the Broadband Engine(The PS3 CPU).

To think that SCE engineers have no say, or are not working with nVIDIA engineers on this thing is insane.

And that's all I have to say.

 

[Panajev2001a]

The NVPS3 will be a graphics processor built from the ground up(using NV50 tech) to operate and compliment the Broadband Engine(The PS3 CPU).

It was not built from the ground-up (or from scratch) to compliment CELL based MPUs: if Sony went with the other GPU, nVIDIA would have still used the architecture in PCs.

The NV50's architecture has been completed after several years of work with hudreds of engineers working very hard on it.

Now, we are talking about NV5X and more specifically NV5X-PS3 (if we want to make a nick-name for it).

We know that nVIDIA has assigned 50 engineers and a non small budget to work with SCE's engineers to customize the NV5X architecture to work optimally in the CELL+Redwood+XDR based PlayStation 3.

It will not be NV6X, NV5X-PS3 will be based on the NV50's architecture.

 

[Paul]

We know that nVIDIA has assigned 50 engineers and a non small budget to work with SCE's engineers to customize the NV5X architecture to work optimally in the CELL+Redwood+XDR based PlayStation 3.

Exactly what I wanted to say, "ground up" wasn't the best choice of words on my part.

What I'm trying to say is that this thing isn't just a nvidia GPU thrown in the PS3, it's custom, designed to work with the Cell based Broadband Engine.

 

[Panajev2001a]

We know that nVIDIA has assigned 50 engineers and a non small budget to work with SCE's engineers to customize the NV5X architecture to work optimally in the CELL+Redwood+XDR based PlayStation 3.

Exactly what I wanted to say, "ground up" wasn't the best choice of words on my part.

What I'm trying to say is that this thing isn't just a nvidia GPU thrown in the PS3, it's custom, designed to work with the Cell based Broadband Engine.

Of course, nobody thought it was something just thrown-in: the NV2A was not just thrown-in either and I am sure SCE has all the intentions to get the best GPU possible for PlayStation 3.

 

[Paul]

So we've come to a full circle.

The thing is going to be rediculously fast, I look foward for what the future brings.

 

[Jov]

So we've come to a full circle.

The thing is going to be rediculously fast, I look foward for what the future brings.

Can we expect nV5x ~ nV4x SLI [+ new features + GHz on a core] putting it simply? Or are we expecting much much more?

 

[Megadrive1988]

well now my dream is this: take NV50/NV5X architecture and parallal-ize it massively. obviously a single desktop NV50 GPU is (or would have been) already a parallel design like all modern GPUs. but for PS3 GPU, I'd like a multi-NV5X core super-GPU.

(I might go off-topic slightly)

like how Graphics Synthesizer has 16 parallel pixel pipes or pixel engines. each of those 16 pixel pipes/engines is thought to be an enhanced version of PS1's graphics chip with some additional features. (z-buffer, bilinear filtering, alpha blending, a poor mip-mapping etc. and no CLIPPING!)

now with a 65 nm process, put in 4,8,16 or...(back to within reason) even just two NV5X cores. perhaps minus the vertex shaders since the Cell-based Broadband Engine CPU can take care of all the vertex processing.

another way of looking at it: PS3 GPU, I hope, is like a 64 or 128 pixel pipeline NV5X based GPU with lots of eDRAM. whereas a desktop NV5X GPU might have had 32 pipes.

in other words, NV5X-SLI on a chip. plus eDRAM.


the NV40 was 222 million transistors on 13nm. the NV50 desktop CPU might have been 400 to 500 million transistors on 90nm (Nvidia roughly doubles transistors every real architecture change) the PS3's NV5X based GPU could have a billion or more transistors on 65nm. fill it up with parallel implementation of NV5X plus eDRAM, all optimized for Cell-Broadband Engine, Redwood interconnects, XDR-DRAM, etc.

.... just thinking out loud.....I know there's ALOT i do not understand and Nvidia-Sony are having to work within the limits of process technology & cost among other things.

 

[jvd]

So we've come to a full circle.

The thing is going to be rediculously fast, I look foward for what the future brings.

Can we expect nV5x ~ nV4x SLI [+ new features + GHz on a core] putting it simply? Or are we expecting much much more?

ghz on core would 2.3x the clock speed of nvidia's currently top of the line process pushing low yielding gpu .

I think 1 ghz would be the most we would see from it if it launches 2006

 

[Panajev2001a]

I do not see the need of 32-128 pipe-lines.... that's way too many for now: fill-rate is important, but more important seems to be Shader ops execution performance/throughput.

Better to have 16 pipelines and X Shading+Texture ALUs per pipeline or 64 pipelines and X/4 Shading+Texture ALUs per pipe-line ?

I'd rather have the 16 pipes version until we can fully move to a REYES based solution in the long-term future.

 

[Jov]

Can we expect nV5x ~ nV4x SLI [+ new features + GHz on a core] putting it simply? Or are we expecting much much more?

ghz on core would 2.3x the clock speed of nvidia's currently top of the line process pushing low yielding gpu .

I think 1 ghz would be the most we would see from it if it launches 2006

2.3x the current top-of-the-line due to current fabbing and process size, but when fabbing at 65nm/SOI/Lo-K/etc... they might have more room to up the GHz.

If the Cell BE ~ 4.6+ GHz, then the GPU will likely be 1/4 (worst) ~ 1/2 (best) that speed.

 

[Megadrive1988]

Panajev:

I do not see the need of 32-128 pipe-lines.... that's way too many for now: fill-rate is important, but more important seems to be Shader ops execution performance/throughput.

Better to have 16 pipelines and X Shading+Texture ALUs per pipeline or 64 pipelines and X/4 Shading+Texture ALUs per pipe-line ?

I'd rather have the 16 pipes version until we can fully move to a REYES based solution in the long-term future.

so a REYES like rendering system might not be possible or might not happen until PS4 or PS5? I'd imagine that's when true raytracing & GI *might* be possible. with PS5, I wonder if silicon chips will still be used. will optical processors be feasible by then? I'm thinking PS4 might be the last Playstation to use normal silicon chips. and there needs something (optical processors?) to fill the gap between silicon chips (PS3 probably PS4) and biochip processors that Sony says might be used in PS6 or PS7


PS4 predictions: 25 nm process or smaller. still silicon chips. many tflops. some raytracing. several GBs of external memory @ several hundred GB/sec bandwidth or even around 1 TB/sec bandwidth. plus several hundred MB of eDRAM @ many TB/sec bandwidth. visuals like current best CG intro/cut scenes in videogames. (i.e. Onimusha 3)

PS3 will probably realize the lofty goals of PS2. that is, PS1 CG in games. then the PS4 will probably realize the lofty goals of PS3.

actually PS2 did surpass Ken K's public predictions that he made in 1995 which were 10 million polygons achieved on .25 micron (250 nm) chips.



*puts always his crystal ball which cannot see too clearly*

 

[Tuttle]

.... just thinking out loud.....

Yes. Just from the public information in the press release:

"The powerful custom GPU will be the graphics and image processing foundation for a broad range of applications from computer entertainment to broadband applications. The agreement will encompass future Sony digital consumer electronics products."

Sony's plans for Cell based products are vast - most likely emcompassing the entire range of consumer electronics from low to very high in cost. The notion that Sony is buying a pc video card and 'tweaking' it for the PS3 is absurd, although I can certainly see how some would need to see it that way.

Just like much of the Cell patent talk was overly focused on just the PS3, the Sony-NV relationship talk is overly focused on just the PS3's GPU. Just like the Cell architecture itself, the graphics technology Sony is designing for NV to implement will likewise need to be at its core fundementally scalable for the wide range of products it will be used in.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I do not think nVIDIA's next-generation "architecture" is so "un-scalable" by design .

 

[Megadrive1988]

Tuttle, I do not disagree with what you wrote there

 

[Megadrive1988]

I do not think nVIDIA's next-generation "architecture" is so "un-scalable" by design

exactly why I am hoping for a scaled up implementation of nVIDIA's next-gen architecture for PS3 GPU, for a console that'll have to last 5-7 years, until early next decade when PS4 is likely to arrive (2011-2013)

 

[Jov]

.... just thinking out loud.....

Yes. Just from the public information in the press release:

"The powerful custom GPU will be the graphics and image processing foundation for a broad range of applications from computer entertainment to broadband applications. The agreement will encompass future Sony digital consumer electronics products."

Sony's plans for Cell based products are vast - most likely emcompassing the entire range of consumer electronics from low to very high in cost. The notion that Sony is buying a pc video card and 'tweaking' it for the PS3 is absurd, although I can certainly see how some would need to see it that way.

Just like much of the Cell patent talk was overly focused on just the PS3, the Sony-NV relationship talk is overly focused on just the PS3's GPU. Just like the Cell architecture itself, the graphics technology Sony is designing for NV to implement will likewise need to be at its core fundementally scalable for the wide range of products it will be used in.

Agreed, and in summary:

Sony/nVidia PS3 GPU deal != MS/nVidia Xbox GPU deal [not including the fabbing component]

It should not have been compared in the 1st place.

The XGPU would have been [alot] easier to develop for the Xbox given the over architecture is x86 based/centric (i.e. CPU, GPU and Chipset).

With the PS3, we are talking an entirely different type of fish. It’s not even in the same architectural paradigm.

And to think Sony has little or no input into the design of the M/V/GPU is ludicrous.

Also given it’s a new design and never done before (which probably rules out the NV4x SLI idea), I will not be surprised by the end of this how Cell like the GPU will end up to be, even though not Cell based (base – building upon).

 

[joe emo]

The XGPU would have been [alot] easier to develop for the Xbox given the over architecture is x86 based/centric (i.e. CPU, GPU and Chipset).

That's a fairly flawed assumption, given Apple uses NVIDIA boards in G5s. I would estimated the PowerPC architecture has more in common with cell than x86 chips do; and for all intents and purposes the NV GPUs used in Apple products are the same exact chips used for PC boards.

 

[Megadrive1988]

found this piece on xbitlabs

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/editorial/display/nvidia-editors04_3.html

System-on-a-chip is the future of computing. Right now GeForce 6 has 250million transistors. Next generation will be from 0.5-1 billion transistors. These systems are going to come one day, the only question is how they become relevant in the market.

Image processing is also picking up as one of the most popular tasks nowadays. The media processor business is also very important for the consumer electronics. And already now we see a lot of steps undertaken in this direction. On Tuesday night, for instance, next generation Sony Playstation was announced. So far NVIDIA refused to disclose any more details, but we know that it is going to be a very powerful platform. NVIDIA is building a custom GPU on the architecture beyond GeForce 6 for Playstation 3. Graphics technology is certainly one of the most important things NVIDIA is working on regarding this platform, but there is the whole variety of other things including software tools and other technologies, that are also worth paying special attention to. You can also find more info about this upcoming gaming console in this news story of ours.

other than the fact that 'GeForce 6' (NV40) has "only" 222 million transistors, not 250 million, I agree that nextgen Nvidia chips should see 0.5 to 1 billion transistors. hmmm nextgen desktop GPU with 0.5 billion and PS3 GPU at 1 billion sound about right to me. a good chunk of that likely 1 billion trannies in PS3 GPU is gonna be eDRAM.

 

[Jov]

The XGPU would have been [alot] easier to develop for the Xbox given the over architecture is x86 based/centric (i.e. CPU, GPU and Chipset).

That's a fairly flawed assumption, given Apple uses NVIDIA boards in G5s. I would estimated the PowerPC architecture has more in common with cell than x86 chips do; and for all intents and purposes the NV GPUs used in Apple products are the same exact chips used for PC boards.

I am aware of that... was spending hours looking at the HD Cinema Display with the G5. For the 30" display it requires the GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL version card, but what they both have in common (PC and G5) is AGP (the glue between CPU and GPU). Unless the Cell arch includes AGP, then it’s less in common then your comments will imply.

Further more, the integration between the CPU, GPU and Chipset in a console is a lot tighter compared to the PC/Mac (or any other System using AGP/PCI – e.g Sun, HP) systems.

For example at the time of release, the Xbox had the CPU & GPU sharing the RAM for a top end graphics solution. Don't even compare this example with today's chipsets which includes a low-end gpu using main memory.

 

[pahcman]

Sony/nVidia PS3 GPU deal != MS/nVidia Xbox GPU deal
It should not have been compared in the 1st place.

That is obvious.
We can extend the list even further Sony/nVidia PS3 GPU deal != MS/nVidia Xbox GPU != MS/ATi Xenon GPU != Nintendo/ATi Revolution GPU != Nintendn/ATi GC GPU != Sega/ImgTech DC GPU != Tiger/Nvidia Gizmondo GPU...

The next gneration game console will consist of 2 devices that Sony has talked about. One of them is the Cell microprocessor....the second device that will be a companion device to it is the graphics processor and the graphics processor will also be the image processor and there's all kinds of exciting features that will(?) come out. It's based on the next gneration GPU technology and our expectation is to try and put it into production this year. Our next generation GPU has been in development for quite some time as you'd imagine and is something that's near completion.

It is going to be a custom GPU, and its going to be a custom GPU to architect it and optimizie to work specifically with the Cell microprocessor. Ultimately if you think about the architecture inside this GPU...it probably was a......this next generation architecture took several hundred people several years to go build, but this specific implementation of that architecture should take about 50 engineers and is something we're running full throttle on and I have every expectation that we will be able to see final production silicon later on in the year.

Sounds from this interview, PS3 is not entirely Sony Cell designed (why a break of 2? this next gen architecture is for peecee right? what is nvidia usual defination for "next gen architecture"? i dont think they will spend years and manpower on cell architecture, nvidia intermediate market is still peecee right? that why the 50 is for cell version of NVXX right?), and so peecee Nvidia have a much larger say in the PS3 design. Right Vince, tuttle?

What are the all kind of exciting features he said for the companion device? Is it restricted to new graphics or will PS3 have nvidia media processor like MCP2? It is good if so. I am using an Xbox and nForce2 PC. Love both of them.