nVidia building the PS3 GPU in its "entirety"

[Mythos]

Then again you're not going to hear... by the way Sony here's our GPU go ahead and plug it right in. They're both going have to work at it to balance out the GPU/CPU combination.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

'GPU is the digital signal processor of the 21st century'...

Oh...OK.. He's talking about the future of GPUs in general though, not the PS3 GPU as far as I can tell.

This isn't anything really new or earth shattering. Basically, GPUs are getting more and more general purpose, and that, combined with "two way" busses like PCI-E (or closed console busses) will converge to make GPUs do much more than simply "3D Graphics."

 

[Sonic]

Nothing.....

Let's just say that Nvidia is probably doing 90% of the GPU and it is based off of one of their future designs. We don't know how flexible Nvidia's future graphics chip architectures will be and it could be that they are adaptable to a console solution with great ease. After that then they can incorporate what Sony wants to see in the GPU. That probably does mean high fill rate, great shader power/throughput, and insane geometry levels. I imagine Nvidia will make a fully competent GPU that Sony envisions for the PS3, not what Sony is capable of making on their own.

 

[Megadrive1988]

Sonic wrote:

Let's just say that Nvidia is probably doing 90% of the GPU and it is based off of one of their future designs. We don't know how flexible Nvidia's future graphics chip architectures will be and it could be that they are adaptable to a console solution with great ease. After that then they can incorporate what Sony wants to see in the GPU. That probably does mean high fill rate, great shader power/throughput, and insane geometry levels. I imagine Nvidia will make a fully competent GPU that Sony envisions for the PS3, not what Sony is capable of making on their own.

probably.

I cannot wait to find out the whole truth on PS3. but I suppose these revalations, at least to a large degree, probably kills the Graphics Synthesizer 3 or 'Visualizer' with on-GPU Cell-based components like A|SPUs. (right?)


*wants to know what Panajev is thinking now*


on second thought, maybe GS3 or Visualizer is not dead. maybe the GPU is still Cell-based at the front end with A|SPUs and Nvidia is making the entire backend.

 

[j^aws]

'GPU is the digital signal processor of the 21st century'...

Oh...OK.. He's talking about the future of GPUs in general though, not the PS3 GPU as far as I can tell.

This isn't anything really new or earth shattering. Basically, GPUs are getting more and more general purpose, and that, combined with "two way" busses like PCI-E (or closed console busses) will converge to make GPUs do much more than simply "3D Graphics."

I got the hint that it's the architecture for PS3/NV50 GPU after listening to it again...and it's not anything new like you say. But I bet the main attraction would be the compilers and dev tools that would be optimised for the hardware to make Cg shine!

 

[j^aws]

Sonic wrote:

Let's just say that Nvidia is probably doing 90% of the GPU and it is based off of one of their future designs. We don't know how flexible Nvidia's future graphics chip architectures will be and it could be that they are adaptable to a console solution with great ease. After that then they can incorporate what Sony wants to see in the GPU. That probably does mean high fill rate, great shader power/throughput, and insane geometry levels. I imagine Nvidia will make a fully competent GPU that Sony envisions for the PS3, not what Sony is capable of making on their own.

probably.

I cannot wait to find out the whole truth on PS3. but I suppose these revalations, at least to a large degree, probably kills the Graphics Synthesizer 3 or 'Visualizer' with on-GPU Cell-based components like A|SPUs. (right?)


*wants to know what Panajev is thinking now*


on second thought, maybe GS3 or Visualizer is not dead. maybe the GPU is still Cell-based at the front end with A|SPUs and Nvidia is making the entire backend.

Megadrive,

Cell is basically a programmable DSP...NV are hinting that the GPU is a programmble DSP. For the GPU to be Cell based, it just needs to run software Cells and doesn't have to be the visualizer from the patents or configured like a S|APU from the CPU. They only need an consistent ISA to run 'software Cells'!

 

[Panajev2001a]

Sonic wrote:

Let's just say that Nvidia is probably doing 90% of the GPU and it is based off of one of their future designs. We don't know how flexible Nvidia's future graphics chip architectures will be and it could be that they are adaptable to a console solution with great ease. After that then they can incorporate what Sony wants to see in the GPU. That probably does mean high fill rate, great shader power/throughput, and insane geometry levels. I imagine Nvidia will make a fully competent GPU that Sony envisions for the PS3, not what Sony is capable of making on their own.

probably.

I cannot wait to find out the whole truth on PS3. but I suppose these revalations, at least to a large degree, probably kills the Graphics Synthesizer 3 or 'Visualizer' with on-GPU Cell-based components like A|SPUs. (right?)


*wants to know what Panajev is thinking now*


on second thought, maybe GS3 or Visualizer is not dead. maybe the GPU is still Cell-based at the front end with A|SPUs and Nvidia is making the entire backend.

I still think the GPU migh not be CELL based as that was basically plan "a0": plan "a1" already was not CELL based AFAIK and had won over plan "a0", before plan "a2" was finally chosen.

 

[Megadrive1988]

Megadrive,

Cell is basically a programmable DSP...NV are hinting that the GPU is a programmble DSP. For the GPU to be Cell based, it just needs to run software Cells and doesn't have to be the visualizer from the patents or configured like a S|APU from the CPU. They only need an consistent ISA to run 'software Cells'!

Jaws: okay, I see I've been somewhat confused on that for while now

 

[Trawler]

If it's Cell based why didn't they just say so? It makes no sense. Everything from the CC points towards this being a traditional nv design with modifications to suit Sony (ala the XBox deal).

 

[Megadrive1988]

Sonic wrote:

Let's just say that Nvidia is probably doing 90% of the GPU and it is based off of one of their future designs. We don't know how flexible Nvidia's future graphics chip architectures will be and it could be that they are adaptable to a console solution with great ease. After that then they can incorporate what Sony wants to see in the GPU. That probably does mean high fill rate, great shader power/throughput, and insane geometry levels. I imagine Nvidia will make a fully competent GPU that Sony envisions for the PS3, not what Sony is capable of making on their own.

probably.

I cannot wait to find out the whole truth on PS3. but I suppose these revalations, at least to a large degree, probably kills the Graphics Synthesizer 3 or 'Visualizer' with on-GPU Cell-based components like A|SPUs. (right?)


*wants to know what Panajev is thinking now*


on second thought, maybe GS3 or Visualizer is not dead. maybe the GPU is still Cell-based at the front end with A|SPUs and Nvidia is making the entire backend.

I still think the GPU migh not be CELL based as that was basically plan "a0": plan "a1" already was not CELL based AFAIK and had won over plan "a0", before plan "a1" was finally chosen.

so basicly, I take it you are thinking the GPU is mostly Nvidia-based, with input from Sony. it seems to be the best choice, considering that Sony was quite alot behind Nvidia when PS2 was developed, and now that Nvidia has grown in resources and IP by leaps & bounds, Nvidia was the only really good choice for Sony..

 

[j^aws]

If it's Cell based why didn't they just say so? It makes no sense. Everything from the CC points towards this being a traditional nv design with modifications to suit Sony (ala the XBox deal).

AFAIK, the interviewer didn't ask him whether it was Cell based or not but I definitely would've!

 

[Trawler]

AFAIK, the interviewer didn't ask him whether it was Cell based or not but I definitely would've!

This is Huang we're talking about. If it were Cell based he'd be screaming it from the rooftops.

Unless he was smoking something hallucinogenic?

 

[j^aws]

AFAIK, the interviewer didn't ask him whether it was Cell based or not but I definitely would've!

This is Huang we're talking about. If it were Cell based he'd be screaming it from the rooftops.

Unless he was smoking something hallucinogenic?

Well, indirectly he was pretty much ecstatic about Cell (and so was the interviewer!) by the end of the interview!

For the defn of Cell based, both CPU and GPU need a consistent ISA to run software Cells, no big deal! I don't see by that logic why a 'Cell' based GPU would be suitable for x86 PC's. Afterall, their CPUs aren't Cell based anyway!

AFAICS, it's more a software issue than a hardware issue!

 

[Panajev2001a]

What does it mean having a "Consistent ISA without having the SPU/APU construct" ? Are you talking about on-the-fly JIT translation ? Emulation ?

Do you think nVIDIA is extending the ISA their Shading ALUs use to support the same ISA as the SPU/APU ?

The GPU they are working on was in development already to be their next-generation PC GPU with or without Sony even though they were interested in PlayStation 3.

If you look at some nVIDIA patents you will appreciate how at the end good answers to the parallel processing problem are not that different after-all .

With that said, I do not see nVIDIA swapping their shading ALUs with APUs and then modifying the APUs to do the same job their own Shading ALUs were designed to do: that would be a MAJOR departure... something I think is beyond the scope of this collaboration.

Maybe future nVIDIA parts, after PlayStation 3, might include some CELL technology if nVIDIA decdes to license the technology.

I am thinking there will be e-DRAM, but with nVIDIA eyeing XDRI wonder if the GPU will use its own pool of XDR RAM at very high speeds rather than e-DRAM. It would be difficult to match e-DRAM speeds, but I think nVIDIA's and SCE's engineers know what their performance+features+cost target (they want high performance and advanced shading features, but a $600 to manufacture GPU will be a bit to extreeme for PlayStation 3, but a part of the job of good engineers is to use the R&D money the best way possible to maximize speed while minimizing, where possible [I do not think that destroying the design to save $5 on each chip is something either nVIDIA or SCE want], costs) is and how to get there.

 

[snakejoe]

...when you say produced by the end of the year is that this calender year (i.e. a few weeks), next calender year or end of the financial year? Was there any clarification?

Next calendar year if memory serves...I'm trying to listen to it again...

any update on this time? thanks.

 

[j^aws]

What does it mean having a "Consistent ISA without having the SPU/APU construct" ? Are you talking about on-the-fly JIT translation ? Emulation ?

I'm just looking at them as a bunch of SIMD units...the patents say you can have more or less SIMD units depending on performace...so what I'm thinking is that they have a Cell template, like the Toshiba MEP template if you remember?

Do you think nVIDIA is extending the ISA their Shading ALUs use to support the same ISA as the SPU/APU ?

Depends if you think there will be any shading going on in the CELL CPU? i.e vertex shading?

And of course they'll be eDRAM, Sony-Tosh love eDRAM! ...unless NV implement this turbo-cache thingy! :?

 

[Megadrive1988]

one wrote:

Oh, doesn't the direct link I posted above work for you? As the URL contains a UUID in it, it may work only for me though. I can open it in Windows Media Player and can skip in the stream ahead.

naa, it didn't work for me. I'll try it on another PC later. thanks for trying though.

edit: ohhh I tried it again on the same PC, now it's working. again, thanks very much. this is so much more convienient

 

[Joe DeFuria]

...when you say produced by the end of the year is that this calender year (i.e. a few weeks), next calender year or end of the financial year? Was there any clarification?

Next calendar year if memory serves...I'm trying to listen to it again...

any update on this time? thanks.

At about 38:50

The next gneration game console will consist of 2 devices that Sony has talked about. One of them is the Cell microprocessor....the second device that will be a companion device to it is the graphics processor and the graphics processor will also be the image processor and there's all kinds of exciting features that will(?) come out. It's based on the next gneration GPU technology and our expectation is to try and put it into production this year. Our next generation GPU has been in development for quite some time as you'd imagine and is something that's near completion.

In the video game makret historically companies want to have their own flavor so it's got to be somewhat customized for that application so will that be the case here and if so can you give us a sense as to how many engineers it takes and what sort of time frame to actually complete the design and get it to the point where you're prototyping and getting ready for pre-production?

It is going to be a custom GPU, and its going to be a custom GPU to architect it and optimizie to work specifically with the Cell microprocessor. Ultimately if you think about the architecture inside this GPU...it probably was a......this next generation architecture took several hundred people several years to go build, but this specific implementation of that architecture should take about 50 engineers and is something we're running full throttle on and I have every expectation that we will be able to see final production silicon later on in the year.

 

[Megadrive1988]

ot:

heh, listening to it again from the 41 min mark, I heard the questioner say:

"you were doing something for Sega which didn't actually go anywhere"

that was the NV2. worked on during the 'dark' period between NV1 in Diamond Edge 3D cards and Riva128

JH didn't say anything about that

 

[V3]

From, how the things are going, Sony seems to have a locked down on the spec of PS3 for quite sometimes now. Maybe they'll launch as soon as Xbox 2 launched.