Nokia's Present & Future
- Thread starter Arun
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Jelly Bean with my Galaxy Nexus has finally stopped me from viewing Android as a clunky OS, yet more efficient underlying approaches like tombstoning (which can work exceedingly well as long as a comprehensive set of processes can multitask like with iOS but which WP7 doesn't implement so well yet) and UI priority allow my iOS devices to perform at least as well in multitasking and smoothness with half the RAM and a smaller battery.
Doing more with less will let them pull noticeably ahead of Android in their ability to keep multiple apps in memory and in battery life whenever iOS devices close the gap in specs like RAM amount, which tends to happen for a while each generation before Android's multi manufacturer model allows it to pull far enough ahead again. Even then, an iOS device with half the RAM performs just as well, especially in scenarios like gaming so far.
Doing more with less will let them pull noticeably ahead of Android in their ability to keep multiple apps in memory and in battery life whenever iOS devices close the gap in specs like RAM amount, which tends to happen for a while each generation before Android's multi manufacturer model allows it to pull far enough ahead again. Even then, an iOS device with half the RAM performs just as well, especially in scenarios like gaming so far.
Nope, I've got an LG and the model is getting on for a couple of years old I think. It was one of the early WP7s. I didn't know that the Lumias wouldn't let you change the battery. That's a bit rubbish.
I'll give WP8 another shot, but despite its strong points WP7 has been a bit of disappointment because it completely omits many important areas that I've come to value (like ringer volume, media player features, phone backup etc). Like a grown up phone that's been toddlerfied.
"Please, sir, can I set the ringer volume?"
"Hohohohoho. No child."
*patronising smile and pat on the head*
french toast
Veteran
I think wp 8 will right many of the wrongs...I'll repeat..why have tombstoning when there has been NO quantifiable benefit..as in...real world hands on battery savings...or what ever..
No one on here who likes tombstoning has given me a valid quantifiable benefit for the consumer...none.
It's there to save hardware manufacturers money.
No one on here who likes tombstoning has given me a valid quantifiable benefit for the consumer...none.
It's there to save hardware manufacturers money.
WP7 phones can have different screen sizes but they will all have the same resolution. Therefore, everything looks pretty crap compared to higher resolution displays.
According to a lot of people here the OS lacks a lot of functions that Android and iOS has. Maybe WP7 is slightly more responsive than Android, but that seems to be the only thing that is better. Everything else seems to be pretty crap with regards to WP7/Lumia phones.
Tombstoning allows a system with less memory to behave like it has more, or put another way, it allows a user to treat the system like it has lots of memory (meaning they don't ever have to shut apps down or manage memory). The phone doesn't have to have gobs of memory, or use a swap file, and it increases the likelihood that any app that gets started up can have access to a decent amount of memory.
It's a very smart way of handing memory on a device like a phone, but as with anything it's a tradeoff. What I don't like about MS's approach with WP7 is that switching between apps you want to use "concurrently" is a ball ache, being either dependant on the back button or going through menus and "starting" the app again.
True multitasking uses more resources, introduces more variation in conditions for newly started apps, requires additional management from the user and adds cost to the device. On the other hand, you can switch between tasks at will, and return to already running apps faster.
french toast
Veteran
So...it saves the manufacturer money...end of.
As a consumer why do I care if the phone takes 512mb or 1-2gb? All I care about is the experience right?....so why should microkia or apple restrict consumers like that as it obviously offers no advantage to the consumer...just bill of materials..
Now...if it saved battery life by 30-40% or the BOM savings was passed on to me the consumer faIr play...but they arnt are they? So why? :/........
As a consumer why do I care if the phone takes 512mb or 1-2gb? All I care about is the experience right?....so why should microkia or apple restrict consumers like that as it obviously offers no advantage to the consumer...just bill of materials..
Now...if it saved battery life by 30-40% or the BOM savings was passed on to me the consumer faIr play...but they arnt are they? So why? :/........
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WP7 is very smooth and very responsive, and you never have to worry about turning anything off to save memory or save battery. In that sense it's the best phone I've ever seen. It also has some really cool features like the Live Tiles, the always accessible camera, the media controls on the lock screen etc. If you want to do something on your WP7, and your WP7 can do it, you'll most likely be able to do it quickly and easily ....
... but if MS have decided you don't need to be able to do something - like guarantee a loud ringer, or listen to music with an equaliser (even the worst mp3 player / phone I've ever owned can do this), or switch directly between two or three apps - then you can't do it and you're stuffed. And in a sense, your WP7 device then become the worst phone you've ever seen.
I can easily see why some people love it and also why some people hate it.
french toast
Veteran
Don't get me wrong...I like windows phone..I like the smoothness...I like the ui....I like the fact they have innovated and thought of something new, I like the Xbox live eco system...
That's not really the end of it, there's more to it than that.
The cost of the phone very likely to ultimately be passed on to you, the consumer.
Even with 1 or 2 GB of ram you could still fill it up with a combination of apps and see a situation where a new app didn't have sufficient memory. With Tombstoning, an app is able to elegantly bow out of memory if it's told to and avoid a user memory warning, a forced shutdown (that might lose you data) or throwing up an "out of memory" error. In theory the user doesn't need to worry about memory, ever, and that is most definitely part of the user experience and on WP7 is so by design.
Tombstoning could have benefits even for a system with lots of memory. I expect Windows 8 apps will be able to support some kind of Tombstoning, as I can't see MS wanting Windows 8 apps to take a step back in terms of user friendliness.
Tombstoning should save power, both in terms of the memory the system doesn't need to power or have and potentially the CPU cycles that will get saved when the app goes into its background mode.
Free phones aren't really free - the cost of the device is covered in the contract. Only Apple seem to have fat margins and for everyone else the BOM of the phone is likely to affect the price at which they can bring it market - particularly for the mainstream phones. If a phone maker has to double the cost of the memory going into a phone the chances are that some or all the cost will be passed on to the customer i the end.
I expect to see Win Phone 8 devices with lots of memory though, if for no other reason than marketing and (hopefully) faster task switching.
french toast
Veteran
Yea I agree wIth the THEORY. of what you are saying.... but where is the evidence.?
Are you saying that windows phone 7 phones have better batterylife than android or symbian? Even taking into consideration the low end resolution and other specs?
Are you saying that wp7 is cheaper than comparable android phones with the same features? (Excluding the lumia 900 which is a rare promotional desperate example)
The fact that apps will always run out of ram with out tombstoning is nonsense...1gb on android Ics is awesome.
Microsoft charges a quite obscene amount of money for wp licence...to the consumer up to this point tombstoning offers no advantage what so ever that you can bring up a phone review to quantify...none.
Are you saying that windows phone 7 phones have better batterylife than android or symbian? Even taking into consideration the low end resolution and other specs?
Are you saying that wp7 is cheaper than comparable android phones with the same features? (Excluding the lumia 900 which is a rare promotional desperate example)
The fact that apps will always run out of ram with out tombstoning is nonsense...1gb on android Ics is awesome.
Microsoft charges a quite obscene amount of money for wp licence...to the consumer up to this point tombstoning offers no advantage what so ever that you can bring up a phone review to quantify...none.
You still really don't understand. Tombstoning is an approach to handling app use of memory, but you appear to only be able to see it as some kind of lie or trick to scam people.
Try out a windows phone, or grab the free WP7 dev kit and take a look for yourself, or get a pen and paper and think about how it works and use logic.
You're evaluating the worthiness of tombstoning based on an irrelevant and arbitrary set of criteria. Try to think in terms of tombstoning vs not tombstoning.
No, and what would that prove anyway?
I didn't say apps will always run out of memory without tombstoning, it depends on how much you've got free vs how much you need. If you keep using more and more memory you will run out eventually, and that will need handling in one of the ways I outlined. By having the OS able to tombstone apps that situation can be managed transparently.
This is not a trick, or a lie, or fake, it is a valid approach to handling memory and user requirements.
Well it does, but you just seem to be ignoring all the things I point out.
Tombstoning does look set to be a part of Win 8 btw. Yes, even for PCs with 2 or 4 or more GB of RAM. Try and understand it and what it offers.
Try out a windows phone, or grab the free WP7 dev kit and take a look for yourself, or get a pen and paper and think about how it works and use logic.
You're evaluating the worthiness of tombstoning based on an irrelevant and arbitrary set of criteria. Try to think in terms of tombstoning vs not tombstoning.
No, and what would that prove anyway?
I didn't say apps will always run out of memory without tombstoning, it depends on how much you've got free vs how much you need. If you keep using more and more memory you will run out eventually, and that will need handling in one of the ways I outlined. By having the OS able to tombstone apps that situation can be managed transparently.
This is not a trick, or a lie, or fake, it is a valid approach to handling memory and user requirements.
Well it does, but you just seem to be ignoring all the things I point out.
Tombstoning does look set to be a part of Win 8 btw. Yes, even for PCs with 2 or 4 or more GB of RAM. Try and understand it and what it offers.
I've already pointed out multiple times that my iPhone 4 with its 512 MB has reliability on par with my Galaxy Nexus and its 1 GB for seamlessly switching back to prior apps, remaining stable after adding intensive applications like games or Google Earth, and retaining a buffer on open videos in the YouTube app. The Galaxy Nexus is the best case scenario for Android, too, with the least bloatware and latest OS.
The Android browser does seem somewhat better at holding tabs/windows than Safari, but that appears to be browser specific.
Overcoming a 50% RAM deficit with tombstoning is impressive (though I suspect some of that behavior owes itself to better app design), and indications are that a tombstoning OS would juggle significantly more in the way of simultaneous, intensive workloads than Android should the two devices be on equal footing for RAM. Android's multi-manufacturer model is keeping up its end of the deal, of course, with devices moving to 2 GB just as iOS devices are finally reaching 1 GB...
The Android browser does seem somewhat better at holding tabs/windows than Safari, but that appears to be browser specific.
Overcoming a 50% RAM deficit with tombstoning is impressive (though I suspect some of that behavior owes itself to better app design), and indications are that a tombstoning OS would juggle significantly more in the way of simultaneous, intensive workloads than Android should the two devices be on equal footing for RAM. Android's multi-manufacturer model is keeping up its end of the deal, of course, with devices moving to 2 GB just as iOS devices are finally reaching 1 GB...
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The iphone 4 is still a larger seller , costs twice the price of the nokia 900 , has a smaller screen and a smilar spec cpu/gpu and no one complains.
The iphone 4s and galaxy 3s all cost 4 times the price of the lumia .
I could understand being upset if they were charging $200 bucks for the phone , but they aren't and yet its still better than the majority of andriod experiances.
From what I see on the iphone it looks like it does (very well I might add) hmmm thinking about it now perhaps it doesnt but there is definitely some pause from switching back to my app, so its not true seamless mulitasking, there is paging of memory in/out. & my app has a low mem footprint (like 20-30mb)
um No & no (and all your follow up answers I'll answer now to save time, "no, no, no, not quite, not bloody likely, is the pope catholic"
can someone show me where I can get a lumia900 at 1/4 of the price of a iphone 4s or galaxy 3s?
hell can anyone show me where its even 1/2 the price?
(crickets)
I've only used Android and the iPhone fairly briefly and never owned one, so they might use Tombstoning for all I know. I've been a Symbian owner up until I got my WP7.
french toast seems to think Android definitely doesn't, but I can't see what they'd gain from not at least allowing apps to make themselves available for tombstoning.
In Windows Phone 7 tombstoning is something you need to write code to handle. You choose how the app handles being closed and restarting. If the iPhone is doing something similar you will probably have details of it in the SDK.
Just tested games on my WP7, and if I start up a game and then go straight to home and start another, I can switch back to the previous game instantly (the first game is presumeably still in memory just deactivated). But if I start up a second and then a third, and then try and switch back to the first, there's a pause and loading screen before it recovers, so it appears that in this situation the first game got Tombstoned because memory was full.
You have to specifically code handling that kind of restarting and state recovery.
That's certainly not the case in France: PhoneHouse.fr sells the Lumia for 530 Euros, the Galaxy s III for 650 Euros (S II for 529 Euros). On Apple.fr, the iPhone 4 starts at 519 Euros and the iPhone 4S starts at 629 Euros.
Even with contracts the difference is not big.
