No more FX reviews.

[demalion]

Sigh. You get one more chance and then get ignored.

Hmmm...Do you really think pointing out problems and stating why is as condescending is your tone here, or do you just not consider limiting yourself from making statements that are purely condescending?. Forgive me if I take offense at this posturing due to your clear demonstration that you are already ignoring me, it must be what I'm owed for my "condescenscion" in making negative statements about your own commentary, nevermind the accuracy of those statements.

I'll be sure to go to my room after this post. But you should know I have a computer there too.

I did not say they were all equal.

No, you did not say the word "equal", I agree.

You did equate them, however. Which is what I actually stated, verbatim, so I don't know how you got confused there.
Look up the word equate, and then critically examine your post, and please don't be surprised at negative reactions to your trying so hard to make it necessary for me to point out something as obvious as why listing other companies and their actions after saying nVidia had no choice and it is "how it is" serves to equate nvidia to those other companies and their actions.

At no time did I exonorate NVIDIA.

I actually covered this exact word issue before, Russ (though I might have mispelled at the time). Exonerate means to make completely blameless. That is one way to justify and defend, but so is spending time mentioning others and using the same term to refer to all of them, or omitting nVidia's specifics while listing what other companies have done in place of discussing it and any differences between them, or proposing a general term that can be substituted for considering those specifics, or stating that they needed to stay in business and proposing that the only alternative to the full set of actions they took was loudly proclaiming their inferiority.

Did you think switching words in the middle of things would fool me or something? Why are you trying to fool me? Is this about saying things that are true, or about maintaining disagreement with me? If it is about saying things that are true, why do I have to point out that justify and defend have meaninings that "exonerate" does not, or repeat these very simple description of the problems in your statements?

I said look at these other examples in time of creative marketing (lying and/or making knowingly false promises) as butressing proof that it is historically a fact of life in the industry.

Yep, they're all marketing. But they aren't demonstrations of each company doing the same list of things that nVidia did, and trying to switch the word "marketing" in there doesn't change that. Proposing that we look at them instead of what nVidia did because they're all marketing proposes their equivalence. Your not seeing this pointed out in my first reply or my second, and perhaps not being shown in a positive light as a result, is just perhaps your own fault.

Wait...scratch that. You just get ignored.

This is not new. What would be new is your refraining from taking the opportunity to ignore what I said while also restating your own viewpoint in response to my statements. Do you mean you're going to stop that part too?

I don't have time for semantic arguments with you especially when you immediately sink to calling me incapable of using the english language properly.

Well, at least you know that I'm not surprisedby the demonstration. I didn't "sink to calling" you "incapable of using English", I demonstrated the problem in your commentary and then pointedly described it as being incompatible with communication in English. Your continuing "incapability" in English is a choice you seem to make, AFAICS, and as far as I'm concerned, you're free to change your mind on it at any time.
You attack my description, and ignore the reasons provided and the issue of whether the description is true or not, and then provide me reason for proposing the description again by repeating yourself and the problems I already discussed and you just refused to pay any attention to.

It is about the issue of problems in your statements, except you insist on ignoring the issue presented to mention how personally you take having the issue pointed out by me.

 

[Heathen]

If you notice, I particularly took exception to Gkar1's characterization that NVIDIA CHOSE to make a bad product and lie about it, rather than make the morally good choice of a competitive product.

They found they had made a bad product (when compared to the competition) and then decided to deceive the market place about it's capabilities through the use of PR and dubious coding in their drivers.

What nvidia possibly forgot was that although they have a dominant position in the market place it's a very fickle market place, Today's nvidiot is tomorrow's fanATIc so to speak, which moved focus a lot faster than they ever expected.

If it hadn't have been for the R300 and the relatively rapid adoption of DX9 (from my perspective that is) it really wouldn't have been a problem. Unfortunately both these events came about and nvidia were caught seriously wrong footed and still seem to be unsure on how to deal with the pressure being imposed on them.

Will this hurt nvidia financially? To a certain degree depending on the sucess, in all areas, of the NV40 and the true size of the enthusiast retail market. Will it hurt reputation of nvidia with the Online community? You betcha. Are nvidia actually doing anything wrong? Well I haven't seen them do anything I'd consider illeagal yet, unethical from a certain perspective (Misrepresentation of their products could be argued I suppose), but not illeagal.

 

[zurich]

They have for the last few years been an arrogant, marketing led company that spends more time making PR spin more than making good products.

If they were so busy pouring all their money into PR/marketing instead of making good products, then how did everything from the TNT2 to the GeForce 4 Ti line kick ass?

The witch hunt is getting pretty scary these days.

 

[WaltC]

NVIDIA put out a product that wasn't as good as its competitor. They're doing the only thing they can do: market it until their next product cycle which (hopefully for them) will be better.

You attribute too much malice to a company which has no feelings. The only instict a company has is self preservation.

About companies--companies are run by human beings who very much have feelings, and who can lie, cheat, and steal. (Enron, WorldCom/MCI.) Under the law, companies are legal entities, and may be sued, may own property, and may be convicted of criminal actions in criminal courts. Corporations are treated as individuals under the legal systems of most countries. Of course, along with the corporate punishment comes punishment for corporate officers who are not shielded by the corporate shell (again, MCI & Enron being just two such examples of how being a corporate officer is not a legal shield against prosecution.)

nVidia has a choice like any other company when it produces inferior products: produce better ones, or be relegated to second-string status permanently. During the years that ATi saw its markets dwindle to nVidia, what did they do in response? Answer: nothing like what nVidia is doing this year, that's for sure--not even close. Rather, they kept working and plodding and they changed themselves internally and instituted some new paradigms in order to become competitive. That's a whole lot better than the crap nVidia's engaged in. Yes, nVidia has to conduct legitimate marketing. But the company also needs to make some fundamental changes in the way it approaches the graphics market in general if it wants to become competitive again. nVidia seems to be learning, the hard way, that it doesn't call the shots. Question in my mind is: is this something they can re-learn? (They realized it at one time a few years ago.)

 

[Sxotty]

Corporations are treated as individuals under the legal systems of most countries. Of course, along with the corporate punishment comes punishment for corporate officers who are not shielded by the corporate shell (again, MCI & Enron being just two such examples of how being a corporate officer is not a legal shield against prosecution.)

Companies have way more rights than responsibilities in the current system, what are you going to do put a company in jail, or flog them? That is what many seem to want have nvidia flogged, or get to throw tomatoes, well you can't sorry. And officers of companies rarely face serious consequences for their actions, the examples you give are only because their lying/cheating costs thousands of people their live savings and so on so people were angry usually nothing much happens.


And what Russ said is still true, people are getting pathetic. If you want to make a point say what DW said except screw the over the line part, other companies have been over the line as far as I am concerned. Nvidia has for a longer than usual time and to a larger degree tried to mislead people about the quality of its products thru cheats... and so on.

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

They have for the last few years been an arrogant, marketing led company that spends more time making PR spin more than making good products.

If they were so busy pouring all their money into PR/marketing instead of making good products, then how did everything from the TNT2 to the GeForce 4 Ti line kick ass?

Many reasons. Hard marketing. Concentration on OEMs and providing the aforementioned marketing checkboxes for unusable features. Self-destruction of 3DFX. Withdrawal of ATI from the retail market while Nvidia built themselves up. The gift of 3DFX driving all their customers to Nvidia by refusing to supply new chips as they entered the retail market directly.

Personally, I've never owned an Nvidia graphics card. Their products were never that compelling to me, not even tempting me away from and aging V5500 for several years. That's how good they were for me.

I would have given the NV30 a go, as I did completely belive Nvidia's PR, but when that all turned out to be false, and when Nvidia were unable to deliver it in a timely fashion, I bought (in hindsight) a much better alternative.

 

[WaltC]

Companies have way more rights than responsibilities in the current system, what are you going to do put a company in jail, or flog them? That is what many seem to want have nvidia flogged, or get to throw tomatoes, well you can't sorry. And officers of companies rarely face serious consequences for their actions, the examples you give are only because their lying/cheating costs thousands of people their live savings and so on so people were angry usually nothing much happens.

No, routinely what happens is that companies which persist in a pattern of behavior not appreciated by their markets eventually go out of business... (Common Sense 101.) The corporate officers involved usually lose their jobs. That's usually punishment enough.

Unfortunately, we live in a caveat emptor world. Fortunately, though, nobody who buys a nVidia nV3x product today can say he wasn't warned...unless he's a complete noob, and in that case he'd never know the difference anyway...

And what Russ said is still true, people are getting pathetic. If you want to make a point say what DW said except screw the over the line part, other companies have been over the line as far as I am concerned. Nvidia has for a longer than usual time and to a larger degree tried to mislead people about the quality of its products thru cheats... and so on.

"Other companies" are hardly the issue here--as I can't think of anything egregious currently being done by "other companies." Look, many people feel "betrayed" by nVidia because they believed them when they spouted all of that FutureMark/3dMk03 nonsense beginning last year. Who is the author of the nVidia story this year??? It's nVidia, that's who. nVidia has only its own gross mismanagement to thank for its current situation. It's too bad that nVidia thought it was big enough to dictate to the entire 3d industry--had they not made that cardinal mistake in judgement they'd no doubt have paid much closer attention to the DX9 specs than they did.

I'd prefer nVidia stay in business to offer some competition in the market--but that's just it--IMO, nV3x is *not* competitive, nor is it a good buy for people, nor does it do anything much at all to increase the progress of the state of 3d generally. Frankly, with products like nV3x, I'd as soon nVidia bow out completely to make room for a company that can market competitive products. If they can become competitive again--great--I'm looking forward to it. But this kind of "marketing" crap I can live without.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

And what Russ said is still true, people are getting pathetic.

Observe.

The amount of "patheticness" of "the people" is directly proportional the the "patheticness" of the PR in question.

That is, nVidia created their own monster.

The "most pathetic" posts that I've seen come not from "those who have forseen this situation" and have been warning others about it ever since the original 3DMark shader benchmarks. The most pathetic (highly emotional, least rational) posts come from those who bought into the PR, bought an nVidia product, and now feel "cheated."

nVidia is caught in a "lies beget lies" web. They start telling one seemingly innocent lie / deception: "Our performance on future games is best...look at Doom3!" In hopes that well, Doom3 would emerge before DX9 games would, negating the need for much cover up.

Unfortunately for nVidia, DX9 caught up with them, and Doom3 is nowhere in sight. So...more lies, deception, seedy tactics to try and cover up their original assertion.

It has now gotten to the point where the majority just aren't buying the lies any more. The web got too big for nVidia to handle. nVidia's best course now is to put the NV3x behind them as fast as possible and move on to NV40 architecture....assuming that the NV40 will be competitive on it's own merit. Because anything nVidia "claims" of the NV40 will be scrutinized under a microscope by any reviewer worth it's weight in salt. It will certainly be scrutinized by the public....and rightfully so.

 

[RussSchultz]

*ponder* I never said anybody was pathetic, so I'm a little confused as to where that statements coming from.

 

[Sxotty]

Observe.

The amount of "patheticness" of "the people" is directly proportional the the "patheticness" of the PR in question.

That is, nVidia created their own monster.

You are w/o a doubt correct. But it still has started to irritate me not a lot, just like a nagging feeling, like a saddle burr...


Russ I wasn't saying you said it, I was saying you were correct in what you did say (comma) my thoughts follow People are getting pathetic, and yes I still think that.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

You are w/o a doubt correct. But it still has started to irritate me not a lot, just like a nagging feeling, like a saddle burr...

I do know exactly how you feel. For a couple days there, I was rolling my eyes every time I saw the "nVidia Information Ministry" picture cropping up in random threads. It was funny the first time I saw it...not the 50th.

This is a case though, (much like the endless 5800 dustbuster jokes) where I'm willing to endure it more than usual. Specifically, because nVidia brought it upon themselves through their actions.

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

You are w/o a doubt correct. But it still has started to irritate me not a lot, just like a nagging feeling, like a saddle burr...

This is a case though, (much like the endless 5800 dustbuster jokes) where I'm willing to endure it more than usual. Specifically, because nVidia brought it upon themselves through their actions.

I'm sure Nvidia is counting on a lot of people just getting fed up of the whole subject. They plan to keep their heads down, keep their mouths shut about the true issues, and hope that it all blows over while they continue to cheat and lie.

We're not going to let Nvidia grind us down and get away with all those lies in what has become a war of attrition are we? Especially when they continue to commit their crimes in new and interesting ways, continuing to lower the bar on acceptable behaviour.

Of course, the one thing worse than people constantly complaining, are those that insist on reading said complaints, and then complaining about the original complaints. If you don't like 'em, don't participate in the threads.

 

[RussSchultz]

This is a case though, (much like the endless 5800 dustbuster jokes) where I'm willing to endure it more than usual. Specifically, because nVidia brought it upon themselves through their actions.

Sounds like a bad case of schadenfreude.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Sounds like a bad case of schadenfreude.

I can only respond with:

 

[John Reynolds]

Sounds like a bad case of schadenfreude.

If that isn't a dictionary word of the day. . . .

 

[RussSchultz]

Sounds like a bad case of schadenfreude.

If that isn't a dictionary word of the day. . . .

Heh. amateurs. The proper response is: gesundheit!

 

[Joe DeFuria]

If that isn't a dictionary word of the day. . . .

Lol...

http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2000/05/10.html

What I was pretty amused about, is the phonetic similarity to "shader fraud".

 

[digitalwanderer]

schadenfreude \SHAHD-n-froy-duh\, noun: A malicious satisfaction in the misfortunes of others

Wow, now THAT is gonna be a useful word for me! Thanks for the edukation. 8)

 

[Dio]

No, the word of the day is always, "supercilious"

 

[Humus]

Compressing light maps for another (If I remember correctly)

It was actually the other way around. They skipped compression of the lightmaps in Q3 when the app called for it. This gave back a lot of quality, with minimal performance hit. The game shouldn't have compressed the lightmaps in the first place, but since it did, ATI decided to fix the problem on the driver side.